American Pale Ale - 523.ch Winterbliss clone attempt

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American Pale Ale - 523.ch Winterbliss clone attempt

Unread postby Avispartner » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:58 pm

Hi Braumeisters,

With my first Braumeister batch ever in the fermenter for another week or so until bottling, I thought I might start working on my next batch. I want it to be a rather easy recipe, given my "not-yet-having-much-all-grain-or-Braumeister-experience" :D .

I currently very much like a seasonal pale ale called Winterbliss from a very small Swiss craft brewery called 523.ch (the name being their state brewery licence number or so). The guys are very open minded and tell you on their website which fermentables and hops they use, but of course not the exact recipe. So I thought I try to kind of clone the recipe.

This being my first attempt of "creating" a recipe in Beersmith 2, I would be thankful if you could let me know what you think of this recipe.

Sorry for bad formatting, maybe someone could tell me how to import a Beersmith recipe to the forum in a more reader friendly way (without having the tabs removed...).

Here we go:

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: 523 Winterbliss Clone
Brewer: Robert Schenk
Asst Brewer:
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 28.77 l
Post Boil Volume: 26.77 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 25.00 l
Bottling Volume: 24.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.059 SG
Estimated Color: 25.0 EBC
Estimated IBU: 39.4 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 80.1 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
1.32 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 1 -
3.75 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 2 63.13 %
1.58 kg Caraamber (Weyermann) (70.9 EBC) Grain 3 26.59 %
0.15 kg Oats, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 4 2.52%
0.46 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 5 7.75 %

15.00 g Warrior [15.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 20.6 IBUs
10.00 g Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 7.8 IBUs
10.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 11.0 IBUs
0.5 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 9 -

1.0 pkg American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [124.21 Yeast 10 -
10.00 g Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Day Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
10.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Braumeister 4 step full body 73% efficiency
Total Grain Weight: 6.02 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperatur Step Time
add malt pipe Add 25.27 l of water and heat to 40.0 C over 20 40.0 C 0 min
Protein Mode Heat to 52.0 C over 5 min 52.0 C 20 min
Maltose mode Heat to 63.0 C over 5 min 63.0 C 20 min
Saccharification 1 Heat to 73.0 C over 5 min 73.0 C 35 min
Mash Out Heat to 78.0 C over 5 min 78.0 C 20 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 9.06 l water at 78.0 C
Notes:
------

Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any thoughts, ideas, do's or don'ts in this recipe?

Thanks for your help.
Robbie
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Re: American Pale Ale - 523.ch Winterbliss clone attempt

Unread postby SteveOR » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:58 am

Robbie;

It looks to me like your pretty dialed in on using the BM. Getting your clone right may take many attempts. Good luck! Cool thing about the BM is that once you like your recipe you will easily reproduce it.

Cheers

Steve
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No experience only 5 batches so far.
as of 15 apr 2014 Now 11 batches.
As of aug 2014 26 batches. I just love this machine!
Sep 2015 now over 100 batches.
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Re: American Pale Ale - 523.ch Winterbliss clone attempt

Unread postby Dicko » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:36 am

Weyermann call for 20% of Caraamber as maximum......you may want to cut that amount down a bit?

PH 5.2 is a doubtful addition.
The general consensus on most brewing forums is that there is no evidence that it does anything for mash PH.
I could be wrong and will stand corrected if someone has the facts.

Protein rest is probably a bit long and not absolutely necessary with the grain bill. It probably wont hurt but 10 minutes would be long enough.

If that is how the Micro recommend that you brew it then disregard all I have to say. :wink:

Good luck with the brew

:cheers:
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Re: American Pale Ale - 523.ch Winterbliss clone attempt

Unread postby DWP » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:53 am

And you may want to review the hop schedule.

You have placed all the hops @ 60mins which only gets bittering.

With those hops it would likely be more like this. ( you could use them all at 60mins and allow for the malt character of the Amber Malt to be your flavour which may be ok )

Warrior @ 60m - 20ibu
Amarillo @ Citra @ 10m - 19ibu
Amarillo & Citra Dry Hopped

And like dicko suggested, < 20% caraamber.
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Re: American Pale Ale - 523.ch Winterbliss clone attempt

Unread postby Broham1 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:37 am

Yeah, and that much caramel throws your color way off. The website lists the color as 8 EBC, which is only 4 SRM. That's lig lager territory. I'd switch from Cara Amber to Caramel 10L. Keep it under 10%.
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Re: American Pale Ale - 523.ch Winterbliss clone attempt

Unread postby dinnerstick » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:20 am

Agree with the others. Are the 60m cirta and amarillo additions in error? You've got the bittering with warrior, I would go 100% warrior for the bittering, unless you've got citra growing out of your ears! Like DPW says it seems more likely that those are late (10/5 minute) additions, otherwise it's a bit odd to have dry hops but no late hops. As with all beers, recipe design is important, but not nearly as important as fermentation. Pitch enough healthy yeast, aerate appropriately, and keep your temperature in the range (for 1056/US06 I stay 17-19).
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Re: American Pale Ale - 523.ch Winterbliss clone attempt

Unread postby Avispartner » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:35 am

DWP wrote:Warrior @ 60m - 20ibu
Amarillo @ Citra @ 10m - 19ibu
Amarillo & Citra Dry Hopped

Thanks for the valuable hints, will change the hopping accordingly. Have to admit I didn't pay enough attention to the timing while struggling with Beerfriend 2...

Broham1 wrote:Yeah, and that much caramel throws your color way off. The website lists the color as 8 EBC, which is only 4 SRM. That's lig lager territory. I'd switch from Cara Amber to Caramel 10L. Keep it under 10%.

I haven't found a supplier for Caramel 10L yet here in Switzerland, so I'll go for reduced amount of Caraamber and see where the colour goes. It showed to be within the limits with the high amount, though.

Is Maris Otter appropriate at all or should I rather go for Weyermann Pale Ale malt?
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Re: American Pale Ale - 523.ch Winterbliss clone attempt

Unread postby Broham1 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:00 pm

The color may be within limits of an IPA, but Winterbliss' color is specifically listed on the brewery website as "EBC = 8.2" which is around 4 on the SRM scale. Look at the difference between 4 and 12 on this SRM chart:

Image
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Re: American Pale Ale - 523.ch Winterbliss clone attempt

Unread postby Avispartner » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:26 pm

Broham1 wrote:The color may be within limits of an IPA, but Winterbliss' color is specifically listed on the brewery website as "EBC = 8.2" which is around 4 on the SRM scale. Look at the difference between 4 and 12 on this SRM chart:

Image

Ah, now I got you, so then I guess I should go for an SRM color around 12 which will be around 24 EBC. Or rather get rid of Caraamber to reduce the color towards Winterbliss' level. I don't mind the color being darker, although it will no longer be a "clone". Alright, will go playing in Beerfriend tonight :-)

Thanks and :cheers:
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Re: American Pale Ale - 523.ch Winterbliss clone attempt

Unread postby Dicko » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:16 pm

Here are some pictures of it.


https://untappd.com/523brewery/photos


:cheers:
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Re: American Pale Ale - 523.ch Winterbliss clone attempt

Unread postby Avispartner » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:46 pm

Dicko wrote:Here are some pictures of it.

https://untappd.com/523brewery/photos

:cheers:

Great, thanks. I never even checked for their beers on either Ratebeer or Untappd. Had one of the Winterblisses tonight with my dinner. Really yummy :-). I don't know where they had the 8.2 EBC colour from, looking at it, it is really more of a SRM 12/EBC 24...
Have adjusted my recipe for the hop amount and schedule and reducing the Caraamber to about 17%. Expected OG 1.060, IBU around 51, looks like I'm slowly getting there :-)
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Re: American Pale Ale - 523.ch Winterbliss clone attempt

Unread postby Dicko » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:23 pm

Most breweries whether they are Micro or Mega are reluctant to give away their actual recipes for their beers.

As SteveOR said above, it may take a few attempts to nail it as a clone.

:cheers:
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Re: American Pale Ale - 523.ch Winterbliss clone attempt

Unread postby Nesto » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:21 am

Dicko wrote:...PH 5.2 is a doubtful addition.
The general consensus on most brewing forums is that there is no evidence that it does anything for mash PH...

Not much to add to other the other suggestions (haven't tried the beer you're cloning), but I'll +1 this. Put 5.2 away and get some brewing salts (gypsum, Epsom salt, CaCl, etc.), get your local water report, and use EZ Water Calculator (or spreadsheet of choice) to figure out your own pH and ion concentration. I used 5.2 for a few brews and had a distinctly salty taste in them.
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Re: American Pale Ale - 523.ch Winterbliss clone attempt

Unread postby Avispartner » Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:59 am

Dicko wrote:Most breweries whether they are Micro or Mega are reluctant to give away their actual recipes for their beers.

As SteveOR said above, it may take a few attempts to nail it as a clone.

:cheers:

I don't have the actual recipe, but they write on the label what kind of fermentables and hops they use, like this:

ABV:6.8, IBU:55, EBC:8.2
Ingredients: Pale Malt, Crystal Malt, Oats, Warrior, Citra, Amarillo, Citra, Citra, Amarillo, Citra

Not quite easy to read it clearly for a newbie like me, but hey, one needs his challenges :-)

Nesto wrote:
Dicko wrote:...PH 5.2 is a doubtful addition.
The general consensus on most brewing forums is that there is no evidence that it does anything for mash PH...

Not much to add to other the other suggestions (haven't tried the beer you're cloning), but I'll +1 this. Put 5.2 away and get some brewing salts (gypsum, Epsom salt, CaCl, etc.), get your local water report, and use EZ Water Calculator (or spreadsheet of choice) to figure out your own pH and ion concentration. I used 5.2 for a few brews and had a distinctly salty taste in them.

Thought down the same line so sent in my own water sample a few days ago. Should get the report tomorrow and will see what brewing salts I need. Thanks for the hint, I will eliminate pH5.2 then.
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pH 5.2. I had stumbled on this in my readings

Unread postby DeadScorpion » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:37 pm

SPECIAL NOTE: Five Star 5.2 Stabilizer is indicated by its manufacturer to "lock in your mash and kettle water at a pH of 5.2 regardless of the starting pH of your water". Evidence by homebrewers indicates that this product does not produce a mash pH in the preferred room-temperature range of 5.3 to 5.5. That evidence shows this product does produce some pH moderation in waters with high Residual Alkalinity. However, the mash pH tends to center around 5.8 (room-temperature measurement). While 5.8 pH is acceptable, it is at the upper end of the desirable mashing range. The evidence also shows that in waters with low Residual Alkalinity, this product shows little effect on mash pH. Since Five Star 5.2 Stabilizer is a compound with high sodium content, its use will elevate the sodium concentration in the brewing water. High sodium content can be undesirable from a taste standpoint in beer. Proper alkalinity control of mashing and sparging water may produce more acceptable brewing results for most brewers than with the use of 5.2 Stabilizer. To add emphasis to difficulty in using this product, the following conversation posted on Homebrew Talk between noted brewing water expert, AJ DeLange and the chemist from Five Star Chemical regarding their 5.2 Stabilizer product. "Tipped a few last night with the chemist who designed this product and was able to confirm that it is indeed a mix of phosphates (mono and di basic) that accounts for the presence of the malt phosphate. This is something I have long suspected and am pleased to have finally confirmed. Good manners prevented me from pressing him on it's efficacy and suitability relative to the statement on the label. But his comments on it were basically that most brewers should not use it/need it and that it was put together for a particular brewery that had variable source water and no desire to make any effort to track that variability."

Source: https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

Figured I'd pass it along to the forum beer experts. I'm NOT an expert - I just regurgitate what I read. From my readings, and from friends of mine that are experts, take the earlier post advice and add your own minerals. :drink:
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