American Light Lager

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American Light Lager

Unread postby Nesto » Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:10 pm

I've used flaked barley, wheat, rice, corn, and oats with good results - no fountains at all and just mixed in with the rest of the grain. You do want to make sure there is enough diastatic power in the mash. This lager had a very long rest at 63C and efficiency was through the roof.

ETA: Oh, the hops... Yeah, light lagers, except the Dortmunder Export, all have low IBUs. In the 10-20 range. I haven't tried the Speidel Pils recipe, but it looks wrong. Pils should be 30-45 IBUs and my preference is Hallertauer or Saaz (depending on what style Pils).

I don't think the error is a BeerSmith thing, I think it's either a typo (maybe their Tettnang hops have 10% alpha acids?) or just a not so great recipe. BeerSmith seems to do a decent job estimating IBUs. I use the Tinseth formula. Not that it's necessarily accurate vs actual IBUs, but it gives me a relative scale to judge a recipe.
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Re: American Light Lager

Unread postby Luis Coentrao » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:34 pm

Thanks Nesto,

Other thing: what was your fermentation schedule? Narziss's low pitch temperature, primary at 50F until 6 points gravity from FG, diacetyl rest at 65F for 3 days, slow laggering until 32F, remain there for 3-4 weeks while forced carbonating?
When do you transfer from primary to Keg/secondary/Lager vessel ? Immediatly after diacetyl rest or when you reach 32F laggering temperature?
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American Light Lager

Unread postby Nesto » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:47 am

Luis Coentrao wrote:Thanks Nesto,

Other thing: what was your fermentation schedule? Narziss's low pitch temperature, primary at 50F until 6 points gravity from FG, diacetyl rest at 65F for 3 days, slow laggering until 32F, remain there for 3-4 weeks while forced carbonating?
When do you transfer from primary to Keg/secondary/Lager vessel ? Immediatly after diacetyl rest or when you reach 32F laggering temperature?

My lager fermentation schedule is chill wort to 7C (45F) before pitching. Pitch, then allow to rise to 10C (50F) and ferment until 3-5 points above terminal. Then raise to 18C (65F) for a 2 day diacetyl rest. I cold crash slowly... advice from the Yeast book - supposedly yeast will go into distress if cold crashed quickly and can give off esters. I won't get all the way down to lagering temp in my primary fermenter.

Usually rack to a keg for lagering once it's down to 7C. Then into fridge to lager at 2C (35F). I actually don't put my fridge at 0C because I also store my beer to drink in there and it will sometimes freeze depending on the conditions and load. As long as you're under 4C for lagering, you're fine. I will put a blanket of CO2 in the keg, but I usually don't force carb until lagering is complete just in case I want to filter or use finings; it's easier to do if the beer isn't already carbed up.
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Re: American Light Lager

Unread postby Luis Coentrao » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:04 pm

Nice Nesto,
Same schedule as mine recently. Previously used lower temperature.
Do you use the Noonans's "lagger rule" of 3-7 days for each 2Plato of OG?
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Re: American Light Lager

Unread postby Nesto » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:39 pm

Luis Coentrao wrote:Nice Nesto,
Same schedule as mine recently. Previously used lower temperature.
Do you use the Noonans's "lagger rule" of 3-7 days for each 2Plato of OG?

Not really Noonan's rule (I thought that was targeted toward high gravity lagers?), as I don't really calculate it out, I just lager until "it's ready" by taste test. This one should be ready in about 6 weeks.
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Re: American Light Lager

Unread postby Nesto » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:09 pm

Beer finished primary fermentation. 5 days to get to 4 points above terminal. 2 days diacetyl rest to get to terminal of 1.007. Started to cool it down and will have it in a keg lagering by this weekend. Tasting pretty nice so far!
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Re: American Light Lager

Unread postby Luis Coentrao » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:49 am

Nesto wrote:Beer finished primary fermentation. 5 days to get to 4 points above terminal. 2 days diacetyl rest to get to terminal of 1.007. Started to cool it down and will have it in a keg lagering by this weekend. Tasting pretty nice so far!


Nice Nesto,
I see a quite fast fermentation, 7 days until FG, and a huge attenuation (>80%) :beerbang:
Let me guess:
- the attenuation you've got was due to your mash's 120 min. beta rest, right?
- total time in primary fermentor approx. 14 days!?

My last Light Lagger had quite the same fermentation schedule. Used w34/70 rehydrated dry yeast (3 packets) and aereated with air pump/stone for 30min. OG1.050, FG1.012, apparent attenuation 75%. However, there' was a Flaw: Diacetyl :evil:

How much was your yeast cell mass estimate (400 billions cels?)
How do you sanitize the air stone, fermentor, chiller and tubings? StarSan, boil...?
I guess that my flaw was due to sanitation problems.... Used Chemipro Oxi as a sanitizer. Asked some fellows here in the forum and Ralph from Speidel and they told me that it was not a good solution. StarSan, welcome back :oops:
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Re: American Light Lager

Unread postby Nesto » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:11 am

Luis Coentrao wrote:
Nesto wrote:Beer finished primary fermentation. 5 days to get to 4 points above terminal. 2 days diacetyl rest to get to terminal of 1.007. Started to cool it down and will have it in a keg lagering by this weekend. Tasting pretty nice so far!


Nice Nesto,
I see a quite fast fermentation, 7 days until FG, and a huge attenuation (>80%) :beerbang:
Let me guess:
- the attenuation you've got was due to your mash's 120 min. beta rest, right?
- total time in primary fermentor approx. 14 days!?

My last Light Lagger had quite the same fermentation schedule. Used w34/70 rehydrated dry yeast (3 packets) and aereated with air pump/stone for 30min. OG1.050, FG1.012, apparent attenuation 75%. However, there' was a Flaw: Diacetyl :evil:

How much was your yeast cell mass estimate (400 billions cels?)
How do you sanitize the air stone, fermentor, chiller and tubings? StarSan, boil...?
I guess that my flaw was due to sanitation problems.... Tried Chemipro Oxi as a sanitizer. Asked some fellows here in the forum and Ralph from Speidel and they told me that it was not a good solution. StarSan, welcome back :oops:

Yup, total primary time will be 14 days. It's sitting at 7C now waiting until the weekend and I'll keg and drop to 2C to lager for ~6 weeks.

I think attenuation must have been helped by the long beta rest - that's exactly what it was supposed to do. Never tasted any diacetyl. Did get quite a bit of sulphur, but that cleared up. Kept right to my plan - pitch at 7C, ferment at 10C. 415B yeast cells per yeastcalc.co.

I'm perhaps a little more concerned about sanitation that a sane person... For the fermenter, all the parts (except tubing and chiller) get boiled, everything gets scrubbed with PBW, rinsed, then sanitized with StarSan. Oxygenation stone gets boiled and left in StarSan until I'm ready to oxygenate the wort before pitching yeast.
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Re: American Light Lager

Unread postby Luis Coentrao » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:56 am

"I'm perhaps a little more concerned about sanitation that a sane person..."
Me either :beer:

What kind of water do you use with StarSan?
Do you reuse it often? I was thinking next Brew to sanitize my plate chiler and tubings inside a bucket fulled with StarSan and reusing the same StarSan solution to sanitize my glass carboy. What do you think?
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Re: American Light Lager

Unread postby Nesto » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:22 pm

Luis Coentrao wrote:"I'm perhaps a little more concerned about sanitation that a sane person..."
Me either :beer:

What kind of water do you use with StarSan?
Do you reuse it often? I was thinking next Brew to sanitize my plate chiler and tubings inside a bucket fulled with StarSan and reusing the same StarSan solution to sanitize my glass carboy. What do you think?

I do reuse. Same Star San that goes into my fermenter will go into a bucket where my immersion chiller sits on brew day until time to use. And I don't just reuse on brew day. Some goes into a spray bottle to sanitize stuff when I take samples, prepare starter, etc. And I keep Star San for up to 2 or 3 months at a time in corny kegs. I have heard the 5 Star guy say it can keep for 6 months if made with distilled water, but my tap water seems to do fine. You can always check pH to make sure it's still good - below 3.5 is where you want it.
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Re: American Light Lager

Unread postby dinnerstick » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:39 pm

I also reuse starsan for months, unless it starts looking dirty. Mine goes cloudy very quickly in my medium-hard tap water. I check the pH regularly, but I have never seen it rise up even to 3, even after months.
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Re: American Light Lager

Unread postby Luis Coentrao » Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:10 am

thank you guys for your feedback.

you know, when brews don't come as we want, it maybe an opportunity to take a step forward on our "brew knowledge" :lol:
it was interesting to notice that, in my last beer, diacetyl flavor and aroma only aroused during laggering.
After primary and diacetyl rest I only felt sulfur notes (that disapeared over time) and diacetyl was only felt after warming up the beer (so called diacetyl force test). Also, besides buter flavor/aroma, there was something else... acidity/sourness.
Yesterday, this was clearly present even when the beer was at 6C.
Hypothesis:
1. Racking: probably not as I transfer under CO2 from carboy to keg (morebeer syphon)
2. Sensing problem: possible, sulfur and yeast notes may mask the butterscotch
3. Pediococcus: probable, butterscotch plus sour, sounds like contamination; besides, read in Wyeast site that Pediococcus survive at cold temperatures and continues producing diacetyl and acidity over time.

Well, I'm really :evil: with this off-flavor and... with Chemipro Oxi
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Re: American Light Lager

Unread postby johnrm » Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:36 am

Starsan is not quite the silver bullet.
I had a series of infections for a time. Canesta, I believe. I used a regime of bleach, followed by oxi, followed by boiling water/steam, and then starsan. The problem seems to have gone away now.
Chemipro Oxi is good at cleaning, but it is not a sanitiser.
Brouwland refer to it as a cleaner...
https://www.brouwland.com/en/our-products/winemaking/stabilising-and-cleaning/cleaning-products/d/chemipro-oxi-1-kg#.VMNaDxk4nqB

For a cheaper alternative consider Lidl W5 oxi powder (unscented), it's laundry detergent section.
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Re: American Light Lager

Unread postby dinnerstick » Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:42 am

Luis Coentrao wrote:thank you guys for your feedback.

you know, when brews don't come as we want, it maybe an opportunity to take a step forward on our "brew knowledge" :lol:
it was interesting to notice that, in my last beer, diacetyl flavor and aroma only aroused during laggering.
After primary and diacetyl rest I only felt sulfur notes (that disapeared over time) and diacetyl was only felt after warming up the beer (so called diacetyl force test). Also, besides buter flavor/aroma, there was something else... acidity/sourness.
Yesterday, this was clearly present even when the beer was at 6C.
Hypothesis:
1. Racking: probably not as I transfer under CO2 from carboy to keg (morebeer syphon)
2. Sensing problem: possible, sulfur and yeast notes may mask the butterscotch
3. Pediococcus: probable, butterscotch plus sour, sounds like contamination; besides, read in Wyeast site that Pediococcus survive at cold temperatures and continues producing diacetyl and acidity over time.

Well, I'm really :evil: with this off-flavor and... with Chemipro Oxi


sounds like good detective work to me. pedio is indeed famous for slow acidity and diacetyl
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Re: American Light Lager

Unread postby Luis Coentrao » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:23 am

Starsan is not quite the silver bullet.
I had a series of infections for a time. Canesta, I believe. I used a regime of bleach, followed by oxi, followed by boiling water/steam, and then starsan. The problem seems to have gone away now."

You've donne this once or is it your daily practice?

"Chemipro Oxi is good at cleaning, but it is not a sanitiser.
Brouwland refer to it as a cleaner...
https://www.brouwland.com/en/our-products/winemaking/stabilising-and-cleaning/cleaning-products/d/chemipro-oxi-1-kg#.VMNaDxk4nqB.

Yeah, I've noticed that. But Browland refers the same for caustic soda...They state is due to legislation/burocracy issues.
As for Chemipro Oxi, the chemical substance is sodium percarbonate, a well-known cleaner/disinfectant!
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