A tribute to Orval

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A tribute to Orval

Unread postby cpa4ny » Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:54 am

Got a vial of a "regular" Brux as well; would like to brew a tribute to Orval one of these days.

Wyeast seems to have updated its website and now has an Orval "clone" recipe on it:

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_lambicbrewing.cfm

Off the top of my head - the recipe and the techniques look very similar to those described in Brew Like a Monk

(Sorry Niels to venture off topic here) :beer:

Note: This is split off fom the Present your brau topic. - Niels
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Re: A tribute to Orval

Unread postby niels » Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:39 pm

I've shamelessly split off this post from the "Present your brau" topic as I was considering a Orval "clone".

I left today for a short holiday with the family and I was planning on creating a Orval-like recipe during the evenings. So I packed some books and made sure there was an internet connection at our accommodations. Currently I have 3 different sources for Orval-like recipes: BYO 250 Classic Clone Recipes, Brew Like a Monk and Brewing Classic Styles.

Let's get a discussion going...

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Re: A tribute to Orval

Unread postby cpa4ny » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:59 am

Thanks Niels - my bad for going off topic :cheers:

Got one more source for Orval for you - Zymurgy magazine.

A year or two ago - they had an article on two Australian gentlemen doing an Orval clone, which they called KRorval (first two letters probably being the initials of the brewers).

I can't remember the exact date of the issue, but I'll try to double check it once I get back from the office.

Happy holidays with your family! :beer:
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Re: A tribute to Orval

Unread postby niels » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:22 am

cpa4ny wrote:Thanks Niels - my bad for going off topic :cheers:

Got one more source for Orval for you - Zymurgy magazine.

A year or two ago - they had an article on two Australian gentlemen doing an Orval clone, which they called KRorval (first two letters probably being the initials of the brewers).

I can't remember the exact date of the issue, but I'll try to double check it once I get back from the office.

Happy holidays with your family! :beer:

No probs about the off topic. I just split topic when I see it fit. :)

Since I'm a AHA member I have access to the eZymurgy archives and I found the article you refer to. It is in the March/April 2012 issue and is titled "An Homage to Orval". I've sent out an e-mail to the Zymurgy team to ask for approval to share the article on the forum. In the meantime I'm going to read it. :p

I'll contact all three other sources to get permission to share the recipe and maybe quote some text from the book. This way we can share our research and come to a BMOrval recipe. :lol:

:cheers:
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Re: A tribute to Orval

Unread postby niels » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:53 am

Since I never heard back from Zymurgy I decided to upload the article anyway. Along with 2 more clone recipes: one from the BYO 250 Classic Clone Recipes issue and one from the Brewing Classic Styles book.

An.Homage.to.Orval.pdf
Source: Zymurgy March/April 2012 issue
(7.82 MiB) Downloaded 235 times

Orval Clone.pdf
Source: Wyeast Website (http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_lambicbrewing.cfm)
(338.56 KiB) Downloaded 202 times

Orval Trappist Ale Clone.pdf
Source: BYO 250 Classic Clone Recipes issue
(1.24 MiB) Downloaded 187 times

Val d'Or.pdf
Source: Brewing Classic Styles
(312.88 KiB) Downloaded 157 times

Orval - Brew Like a Monk.pdf
Source: Brew Like a Monk by Stan Hieronymus
(446.66 KiB) Downloaded 219 times

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Last edited by niels on Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Added the recipe part from Brew Like a Monk. I edited out some part about the move to cylindro-conical tanks.
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Re: A tribute to Orval

Unread postby dinnerstick » Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:58 am

yeah! thanks for posting this. funny, i was jut thinking about trying an orval-style beer, i am getting into the mindset for autumn brewing (the weather this summer has been about as pleasant as jock itch) and was going to use a smaller orvalish beer to build up a big gob of yeast for a rochefort-10 style whopper. now i'm thinking: brew a soft blond ale, repitch the yeast in an orval-style beer, and then repitch in the big one. i don't have the orval yeast in my library, was going to go with the rochefort yeast (wy1762) for all of the beers, in fact i started growing it up from frozen storage just this morning. i won't go for an exact clone, but i wonder what the main differences are between these strains? gonna go styrian goldings all the way including dry hop, and WLP brett brux after fermentation. i'm just planning this strategy out as i type, but i'm getting excited. i have read the zymurgy article for guidance and will check the ingredients in stock tonight.
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Re: A tribute to Orval

Unread postby niels » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:46 pm

I'm planning an Orval-like beer for my brewday in September. I'm using the BYO version as a base with Pale, Vienna and Crystal malt. The yeast will either come from a bottle of La Chouffe or a smack pack of Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes. Since it's getting hard to find some fresh bottles of Orval around here I'll probably go with some Wyeast bretts.
There are some left-over Hallertau hops and a new pack of Styrian Goldings in my freezer. Looks like I'm decided on the hops.
There is nothing on paper yet but I will have a recipe by the end of the month :)

I have about two crates of Orval in the cellar, but the "freshest" will be about 10 months. Is it worth using the drags from these bottles? Another option is to drive to the Orval region to get me some fresh ones, but I'm pretty sure my girlfriend will call that crazy.

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Re: A tribute to Orval

Unread postby fy0d0r » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:43 am

I have some positive experience cultivating Orval dregs from 3-4 month old bottles and fermenting a test batch of 50% wheat beer with them.
The aroma and tart notes were similar to Orval.

I believe it is worth looking around local beer resellers or cafes for a fresher bottle of Orval without driving to Abbaye d'Orval

I'd think of the primary fermentation with "regular" Belgian yeast and secondary/bottling with Orval dregs.
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Re: A tribute to Orval

Unread postby dinnerstick » Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:32 pm

my stupid homebrew supplier has let me down again (they have about a 30% success rate, shameful. i hate them but keep crawling back because they stock the things that i want.... i hate them. i really don't like them at all.) so i don't have enough pilsner malt and no styrian goldings. however, i just finished installing my new suction fan in my little brew room and need to test it tomorrow! so i'm brewing my orval style frankenbeer with what i have in house. looking like a mix of dingemans pils, holland malt pale, thomas fawcett golden promise.... weyermann's carapils, and something german from the hop freezer. the rochefort yeast is all grown up and ready to go!
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Re: A tribute to Orval

Unread postby niels » Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:54 am

I've found a nice blog post about a Orval clone attempt: Trying to Brew Like a Monk

For later reference I attached the blog post (with recipe) to this post.

Trying to Brew Like a Monk.pdf
Source: The Rosenblog (http://www.willrosenbaum.com/?p=904)
(414.41 KiB) Downloaded 111 times

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Re: A tribute to Orval

Unread postby dinnerstick » Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:14 pm

non-metric!! i can never remember how many half flagons make up one fathom, nor how many flumps in a firkin. ah, i just get grumpy when i see a beer recipe and i can't immediately understand it. but enough of that.

my orval non-clone is in the fermenter (as of 31 aug), and my brett culture is grown and ready to go. basically it's the brewing classic styles recipe.
75% base malt (about equal amounts pils, pale, and golden promise pale)
15% caramunich 120ebc
10% sugar (regular old)
OG: 15 plato / 1.060
hallertauer mittelfreu throughout, about equal amounts at 60 min, 5 min, flameout, to calculated 37 ibu.
rochefort yeast, grown from glycerol stock; stepped up as follows: 5 ml, 200 ml, 1L, 1L. about 60 ml of very pure yeast cake.not sure how many cells, between 200-220bn estimate.
pitched at 18, free rose to 19.5, and i'm bumping it up 1/2 a degree per day to maybe 21-22.
haven't decided if i brett and then dry hop, or dry hop and then brett. the dry hop will be styrian goldings and the brett is white labs brett brux, grown from glycerol stock: 5 ml, 200ml.
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Re: A tribute to Orval

Unread postby malzrohr » Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:36 pm

dinnerstick wrote:....rochefort yeast, grown from glycerol stock...


Do you have or have access to a cryogenic freezer?
Es ist zwar ein sehr gutes Bier, die Goslarische Gose; doch wenn man meint, sie sey im Bauch, so liegt sie in der Hose.
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Re: A tribute to Orval

Unread postby dinnerstick » Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:36 pm

(don't tell my boss)

yes.
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Re: A tribute to Orval

Unread postby niels » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:09 pm

Good news... A colleague of mine is able to get his hands on a crate of young Orval :)

I'm planning my recipe at the moment and will probably go with the BYO malt bill (although I don't have 160°L Crystal laying around) and the Achouffe yeast.

As for the Brett I will go with some dregs from freshly poured Orval. The BLaM recipe calls for adding the dregs during bottling while other recipes call for adding Brett to secondary and hold it for 1~2 months before bottling.

Any ideas which way to go? If I add the drags at bottling, how can I safely calculate the amount of sugar to achieve the 10gr/l CO2? Measure the gravity and assume that the Brett will take it to 1.009 and take this difference as a way to calculate the priming sugar?

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Re: A tribute to Orval

Unread postby dinnerstick » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:18 pm

i put mine in a keg with the brett, going to leave it a few months with an airlock. if you're pretty sure you can estimate the final gravity then your bottling idea sounds good, but i'd be nervous about it the first time
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