wot d'ye make o' this water ,then?

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wot d'ye make o' this water ,then?

Unread postby Fatbloke-Dim » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:51 am

SO,
this is the "gen" on my local water ,both a concise and full version. Short first;-

Hardness Level Soft
Hardness Clarke 2.45 Clarke
Aluminium <5.03 200 µg Al/l
Calcium 9.69 mg Ca/l
Residual chlorine - Total 0.90 mg/l
Residual chlorine - Free 0.86 mg/l
Coliform bacteria 0 0 number/100ml
Colour <0.982 20 mg/l Pt/Co scale
Conductivity 121 2500 uS/cm at 20oC
Copper 0.0080 2 mg Cu/l
E.coli 0 0 number/100ml
Iron <3.58 200 µg Fe/l
Lead <0.643 10 µg Pb/l
Magnesium 2.54 mg Mg/l
Manganese <0.620 50 µg Mn/l
Nitrate 1.65 50 mg NO3/l
Sodium 13.3 200 mg Na/l

Now the full version;-
Parameter Min Average Max Units Regulatory Samples %Failed
Aluminium <2.45 <5.03 19.2 µg Al/l 200 23 0
Ammonium (ammonia and ammonium ions) <0.0077 <0.0077 <0.0077 mg NH4/l 0.5 17 0
Antimony <0.100 <0.135 <0.140 µg Sb/l 5 8 0
Arsenic 0.0600 0.113 0.160 µg As/l 10 8 0
Benzene <0.0471 <0.0471 <0.0471 µg/l 1 12 0
Benzo(a)pyrene <0.0010 <0.0010 <0.0010 µg/l 0.01 8 0
Boron 0.0086 0.0101 0.0126 mg B/l 1 11 0
Bromate <0.0910 <0.0910 <0.0910 µg BrO3/l 10 8 0
Cadmium <0.0200 <0.0463 0.170 µg Cd/l 5 8 0
Calcium 7.74 9.69 13.4 mg Ca/l 23 0
Chloride 7.76 10.2 14.4 mg Cl/l 250 13 0
Chromium <0.0400 <0.0613 0.100 µg Cr/l 50 8 0
Residual chlorine - Total 0.40 0.90 1.20 mg/l 58 0
Residual chlorine - Free 0.35 0.86 1.17 mg/l 58 0
Colony counts after 3 days at 22 deg C 0 3 70 number/1ml 23 0
Coliform bacteria 0 0 0 number/100ml 0 58 0
Colour 0.330 <0.982 2.13 mg/l Pt/Co scale 20 23 0
Conductivity 111 121 139 uS/cm at 20oC 2500 17 0
Copper 0.0012 0.0080 0.0213 mg Cu/l 2 8 0
Clostridium perfringens (including spores) 0 0 0 number/100ml 0 23 0
Cyanide <0.698 <1.05 <1.17 µg CN/l 50 12 0
1,2-dichloroethane <0.138 <0.138 <0.138 µg/l 3 12 0
E.coli 0 0 0 number/100ml 0 58 0
Enterococci 0 0 0 number/100ml 0 8 0
Fluoride 0.0300 0.0317 0.0400 mg F/l 1.5 12 0
Hardness Total as CaCO3 29 35 45 mg CaCO3/l 23 0
Iron <2.15 <3.58 10.3 µg Fe/l 200 23 0
Lead <0.290 <0.643 1.39 µg Pb/l 10 8 0
Magnesium 2.30 2.54 2.71 mg Mg/l 23 0
Manganese <0.510 <0.620 1.58 µg Mn/l 50 23 0
Mercury <0.0150 <0.0248 0.131 µg Hg/l 1 12 0
Nickel 0.590 1.17 1.49 µg Ni/l 20 8 0
Nitrite <0.0016 <0.0016 <0.0016 mg NO2/l 0.5 8 0
Nitrate 1.33 1.65 1.95 mg NO3/l 50 8 0
(Nitrate)/50 plus (nitrite)/3 0.0260 0.0325 0.0380 mg/l 1 8 0
Odour (quantitative) 0 0 0 dilution number at 25oC 0 23 0
Total organic carbon 0.590 1.04 1.53 mg C/l 13 0
Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (sum of 4 PAHs) 0.0000 0.0024 0.0180 µg/l 0.1 8 0
Hydrogen ion (pH) 7.23 7.58 8.00 pH value 9.5 44 0
Selenium <0.0500 <0.0825 0.310 µg Se/l 10 8 0
Sodium 12.2 13.3 15.2 mg Na/l 200 8 0
Sulphate 23.8 30.0 38.4 mg SO4/l 250 13 0
Taste (quantitative) 0 0 0 dilution number at 25oC 0 23 0
Tetrachloromethane <0.0187 <0.0217 0.0300 µg/l 3 8 0
Trihalomethanes - Total 18.2 31.9 64.1 µg/l 100 9 0
Tetrachloroethene and trichloroethene 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 µg/l 10 8 0
Turbidity <0.07 <0.10 0.19 NTU 4 22 0


Now this is the kind of recipes I want to get right;-

5.00 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 90.9 %
0.50 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 2 9.1 %
10.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 3 10.7 IBUs
10.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 40.0 min Hop 4 10.3 IBUs
20.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 5 17.8 IBUs
10.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 6 6.5 IBUs
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 7 -
10.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 8 3.9 IBUs
10.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 2.3 IBUs
20.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
10.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [124.21 ml]
Any thoughts on water treatments that may be required? I can only get mash ph into the 5.6-5.8. range ,and doubt the effectiveness of the 5 star mash ph stabiliser. Reason I ask is that although I've tried mashing for fully body and cooler mashes for lighter body, I can not seem to get the hop-forward juicyness that I get from commercial brews. I've even tried blasting the hopping into orbit ,and drowning things at the dry-hop stage, but only seem to get a sharpish bitterness , close to astringency . Any clues in all this as to what can be improved? I like Lagunitas Day-Time,IPA , Punk,etc.,etc. and whilst my brews to-date have been well received ,there be room for improvement,methinks. :?
"Wilt uw oud graven zijn,
drink beer in plaats van medicijn!"

https://www.flickr.com/photos/fatbloke_dim/sets . my beery pix!!!!
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Re: wot d'ye make o' this water ,then?

Unread postby Onthebrew » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:07 am

Gypsum would compliment the hops and get the mash ph down.
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Re: wot d'ye make o' this water ,then?

Unread postby homoeccentricus » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:40 am

You have very soft water, so that's good! The astringency you perceive is probably caused by a too high pH. You have to get that down to around 5.3 - 5.4.

Ditch the mash pH stabilizer, there's a consensus in the brewing world that it doesn't work.

You need a pH meter (or maybe start with good quality strips) and an acid (lactic or phosphoric) to bring the pH down.
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Re: wot d'ye make o' this water ,then?

Unread postby Fatbloke-Dim » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:43 pm

Yeah,
seems like the ph stabiliser is , at best " a bill of goods"! Have gypsum , and often add some ,'bout a tablespoon or so , but does that not raise ph, being alkaline? Worrevva, Lactic acid may be the ticket , and I figure adds some buffering capacity ,have seen it used many times. Is it O.K. to "wing it" ,by dosing a little, mash a while ,check ph and adjust , repeat until target? And where's best to get it , and in any particular form? Doubt my local HBS would have it. Will give this a go, brews planned soon, as me last batches have just gurgled their last from the keg. Price one pays for being retired and having a recent run of sit-out-able garden weather ! :drink:
"Wilt uw oud graven zijn,
drink beer in plaats van medicijn!"

https://www.flickr.com/photos/fatbloke_dim/sets . my beery pix!!!!
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Re: wot d'ye make o' this water ,then?

Unread postby homoeccentricus » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:48 pm

Gypsum is not alkaline, it lowers the pH. Any HBS should have it. Gypsum or calcium sulphate.

You would add acid 10 minutes or so in the mash. You can add drop by drop, but because of the buffering effect of some of the ingredients of the mash, the pH does not decrease gradually. It will stay the same for a while and then jump downwards. I haven't really tried this method as I use water software (Bru'nwater), but there are many people that do it like that.
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Re: wot d'ye make o' this water ,then?

Unread postby IPA » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:05 am

Seems to me that you are hell bent on making cloudy hop soup so why bother with water treatment ? :lol: :lol:
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Re: wot d'ye make o' this water ,then?

Unread postby Onthebrew » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:44 am

I’d go for 8g gypsum 2g calcium sulphate. I use tescos ashbec which is soft too and hat gets me there around 5.3 5.4 with this sort of malt bill. With 100 per cent extra pale bills I have used acid malt too, but with the crystal you may not need to?
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Re: wot d'ye make o' this water ,then?

Unread postby homoeccentricus » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:30 pm

Calcium sulphate is the same as gypsum. I assume you mean calcium chloride ;)
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Re: wot d'ye make o' this water ,then?

Unread postby Fatbloke-Dim » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:10 am

Cloudy hop soup? You might have just named a beer for me ! I have done similar brews- all except 2 Pilsners have been hoppy stuff since starting brewing- and never had trouble with 'em clearing. Most have had bigger hop-bills than this, I'm holding back on these brews ,and no dry-hop, either! Calcium chloride may be the thing , but is'nt gypsum calcium carbonate ,not sulphate? Anyhoo , I jave plenty of gypsum , thinking on it now, I'd assumed it was alkaline as it can add hardness , or so I thought, but my fevered brain now suggests it may lower the ph , due to becoming carbonic acid. Correct? Probably not . I ai'nt no chemist ,merely a rocket scientist with a master's in crapology. :D

To be fair, all I've done to-date have been well-received , and some I have preferred over others, but I feel they coulda been better. Then again ,one's chums are not likely to slag off free beer ! Won't be bothering with Pilsnrs again , they wuz "all reet", but only done 'em to tick the box, hop-forward is where it's at for me . Unless anyone knows a cheap supplier of quality artisanal Lambics in the U.K. Just a quick enquiry 'bout lactic acid...will that impart any lactic overtones . say like a milk stout or such?
The acid malt thing had occurred to me, but then I thought about the crystal 60, so I may just see how it goes on the day. I test with strips, and have some quality ones I bought for the water in me aquarium , but draw the line at using the ph adjusters bought for this purpose , as I doubt they'd be any use for this anyway. On the theme of "less is more" , the less meddling I have to do with the chemic, the better ,just thought I may be missing a simple trick that yields big results.
"Wilt uw oud graven zijn,
drink beer in plaats van medicijn!"

https://www.flickr.com/photos/fatbloke_dim/sets . my beery pix!!!!
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Re: wot d'ye make o' this water ,then?

Unread postby Fatbloke-Dim » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:16 am

O!WAIT UP......

Just remembered ,calcium sulphate. Aye, limestone burned in the power stations to de-sulphurise flue gas ,becomes.........drum roll , please ---GYPSUM! Really should have known. Ca Co is wot yer put in a glass of water for a hangover ,is'nt it? D'OH !!! :oops:
"Wilt uw oud graven zijn,
drink beer in plaats van medicijn!"

https://www.flickr.com/photos/fatbloke_dim/sets . my beery pix!!!!
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Re: wot d'ye make o' this water ,then?

Unread postby Onthebrew » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:17 am

homoeccentricus wrote:Calcium sulphate is the same as gypsum. I assume you mean calcium chloride ;)

:cheers:

Indeed I did!
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