Whirpool and Trub in BM 20L

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Whirpool and Trub in BM 20L

Unread postby kstiglich » Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:33 pm

Hi folks,
I am trying to reduce the trub in my fermenter. Today I brewed a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale that included 1oz cascade hops in pellets as whirlpool/step, so I tried the following directions;

1. At end of boiling I throw 1/2 oz of cascade hops in pellets (half of hops at whirlpool step), and did not start my chiller.
2. Started whirpooling with a large spoon during 10 minutes and temperature got to 80c.
3. then I throw the second 1/2oz of cascade hops, and started running tap water through my chiller.
4. I had to do something, so I leave for 1 hour....
5. After that hour I found many clouds of clumps (hot brake) floating in my wort... Wort temp was 20c.

trub.jpg

I had to whirlpool again everything, and after 2 hours all cold brake fall to the bottom.
Even that, I lost like 4 or 5 liters because a lot of trub was floating on that 4 or 5 liters....

trub_2.jpg

Please let me know if I am doing something wrong, or how can I improve my whirlpool/trub separation?
I believe that trying to whirlpool with the chiller immersed in the wort is inefficient.
So maybe I have to chilled my wort to 30c, remove my wort chiller and then whirlpool my wort?
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Re: Whirpool and Trub in BM 20L

Unread postby dinnerstick » Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:40 am

whirlpooling before you chill isn't going to help with an immersion chiller, you're thinking like a big brewer who is going to whirlpool hot wort, then run clear hot wort through a counterflow/plate chiller. why not just chill to your desired temp, or stop along the way to do a hop stand, therefore mimicking the exposure late hops will have to hot wort during a big brewery's whirlpool step, and once your wort is at its chilled temperature, remove the immersion chiller and do a whirlpool using a spoon. then leave it for at least 30 minutes, an hour is great, to settle. i have to say i have never got convincing results doing any whirlpool with the BM, and i still need to tilt it to get all the wort i want to collect. just letting it settle and tilting it carefully i am able to collect clear wort. although that said, i don't believe that collecting clear wort means making clear beer!
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Re: Whirpool and Trub in BM 20L

Unread postby kstiglich » Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:41 pm

Thanks dinnerstick,
I could not found more references about whirpooling and its right temperature to do it. So I thought that whirpooling would be perform with warm wort, but as you mention, I just figure out that whirlpool must be done after your wort is chilled.
I have many clear beers transferring trub into my fermenter, but the main problem is that trub occupy space and then I have to transfer less beer into my keg, for that reason I was trying to avoid any trub, but this last time I had 4 or 5 liters with hot trub/hops at the bottom.

What do you think of transferring all the chilled wort even with hot trub into a large container, chill it down and then transfer to the fermenter excluding trub?, and then pitching at the right temp.
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Re: Whirpool and Trub in BM 20L

Unread postby dinnerstick » Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:45 pm

i understand your space concerns very well. you might consider australian style no-chill brewing. i have zero experience with it. but i have done what you suggest, for lagers: chill wort to 20 or so, knock out from kettle to kegs leaving some trub behind, chill them to 10 in the fridge, and then decant to the fermenting vessel leaving trub behind. it's always a bit riskier the more transfers you do, but so what.
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Re: Whirpool and Trub in BM 20L

Unread postby Dr Jacoby » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:01 pm

kstiglich wrote:Hi folks,
5. After that hour I found many clouds of clumps (hot brake) floating in my wort... Wort temp was 20c.


That looks like cold break to me, not hot break. It tends to appear when you add too much fining in the kettle. The classic case is adding too much whirlfloc. Did you use any finings?
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Re: Whirpool and Trub in BM 20L

Unread postby Dicko » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:06 pm

Have a read of post number eight in this topic

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=447

I have found this is the best way that I personally keep trub loss to a minimum.

:cheers:
The worst thing that can happen if I die is that my wife will sell all my brewing equipment for what I told her I paid for it
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Re: Whirpool and Trub in BM 20L

Unread postby Victor Coelho » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:25 pm

Dr Jacoby wrote:
kstiglich wrote:Hi folks,
5. After that hour I found many clouds of clumps (hot brake) floating in my wort... Wort temp was 20c.


That looks like cold break to me, not hot break. It tends to appear when you add too much fining in the kettle. The classic case is adding too much whirlfloc. Did you use any finings?


+1
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Re: Whirpool and Trub in BM 20L

Unread postby kstiglich » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:35 am

Dr Jacoby wrote:
kstiglich wrote:Hi folks,
5. After that hour I found many clouds of clumps (hot brake) floating in my wort... Wort temp was 20c.


That looks like cold break to me, not hot break. It tends to appear when you add too much fining in the kettle. The classic case is adding too much whirlfloc. Did you use any finings?


Yes, I used 1 Tablet of whirfloc for 6 gallon wort. I will try 1/2 Tablet on next brew, and also include a pump to pump chilled wáter through my immersion chiller...I think that colding more my wort will precipitate more the hot trub and hops....also, it is difficult to whirpool with the chiller immersed, so I will wait until my wort is chilled, I will remove the chiller and start whirpooling my cold wort...
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Re: Whirpool and Trub in BM 20L

Unread postby Dr Jacoby » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:45 pm

Graham Wheeler's advice on the subject of whirlfloc:

"Whirlfloc is a similar product to Protafloc. Whirlfloc-T is the product in tablet form. Whirlfloc is used at 20 to 60 milligrams per litre, which is about 1 gram for a 23 litre batch. A standard whirlfloc tablet weighs 2.5 grammes, so half a Whirlfloc tablet is sufficient for 23 litres, and is added ten or fifteen minutes before the end of the boil. "
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Re: Whirpool and Trub in BM 20L

Unread postby Victor Coelho » Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:46 pm

I don't use Whirlfloc anymore and get my beers crystal like and no messy trub.
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Re: Whirpool and Trub in BM 20L

Unread postby richard54 » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:04 am

Agree whirlfloc is good. I also use nylon bag for boiling Hi the hops. I think if it's big enough it's as good as chucking into BM. I let some trub into the fermenter. I let about 1.5L settle out in the fridge overnight which usually gives me about 0.5L clear wort to freeze for starter for next brew. So very little waste..
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Whirpool and Trub in BM 20L

Unread postby malzrohr » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:30 am

I have never been able to create an effective whirlpool in the BM and I am reasoning this is due to its design. The heating coils and the temp sensor prevent an effective secondary annular flow as described in the article below:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_leaf_paradox

I use hop pellets and lots of it is stuck to the wall after the boil. So that doesn't end up in the wort. And like Dicko, after chilling I just give the wort ample time for the gunk to settle in the dead space before draining off.
Es ist zwar ein sehr gutes Bier, die Goslarische Gose; doch wenn man meint, sie sey im Bauch, so liegt sie in der Hose.
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Re: Whirpool and Trub in BM 20L

Unread postby kstiglich » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:27 pm

I have improved my method. Now I throw all the hops into boil and use 1/2 tablet of whirfloc. When boil finishes, chill my wort with an immersion chiller, and when the wort is cold at 20c, I remove the immersion chiller and whirlpool the wort with 50~80 moves, and let it settle for 30 minutes.
After that, the trub is concentrated at the bottom in a cone, BUT I have hops suspended in the bottom, so I have a loss of 3.5 liters if I want to left those hops in the BM.
Does it will affect the beer if I let those hops to come into my fermenter?

Regards,
Kenneth
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