Sour Mash in BM

How to get most out of brewing with your Braumeister? Help others and share your tips/best practices.

Re: Sour Mash in BM

Unread postby dinnerstick » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:03 pm

wow, the label was still in the trash in my brewing room from a while back.... it peels off when you dunk the jar in starsan. it comes in a 1kg plastic jar with a screw cap and foil seal under the cap, no air. closer inspection of the label revealed it actually has 10% glucose-fructose syrup, and 'aroma', so apparently i lied about 100% raspberry. glad i found that out actually...!
since my stupid thumb is in the way you can't see the brand name, which is 'Pellorce & Jullien', massy, france. they have an easily googleable website.
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Re: Sour Mash in BM

Unread postby dinnerstick » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:05 pm

en natuurlijk 'frambozenpuree' in het NL/VL
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Re: Sour Mash in BM

Unread postby cpa4ny » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:30 am

dinnerstick wrote:I used the WLP brett brux (650) on this one, i use it for farmhouse style ales, as primary fermenter it gives a little funk but not overwhelming. i have done a couple farmhouses with brux, lambicus (also the WLP strain), trois mixed- a bit more differenter (yeah i just typed that) than the single strain, but not hugely so. i have only done one beer using brett in the traditional/orval way, it was a winter bok-style beer that finished a bit too thick, so i steeped some rolled oats into a nasty protein/glucan tea, added that and dosed it with b brux. i took a year but really did something magical.
i also use the trois strain for two beers, a bigger 6-7% IPA and a 3.5-4% hoppy session pale. i absolutely love that strain, i would marry it if that were possible.

this sour mash beer is now kegged and carbing up in advance of the kimchi festival in amsterdam this coming saturday. even though it's still a bit murky (takes about a week in the 1 degree fridge to be well cleared), it's really tasty, i predict it's going to be emptied in short order. it fermented out pretty well but a bit slower than i'm used to with this strain, maybe due to pH? no idea. i added raspberry puree (cue prince song), gave it another week, into the keg at 1.012 and 4.3% ABV. would probably go lower in time but won't get the chance.


Very interesting; my Saison finished @ ~1.011 on Sacc, so I hope Brett B will take it down a few more points. I reckon that about 3 weeks or so should do the trick. If I remember correctly, Orval spends about that amount of time on Brett for its secondary fermentation.

Brett B Trois IPA had a huge krausen, about 10-12 cm. Luckily I have enough headspace in the fermenter, but I think I was at a borderline of needing a blow-off tube. The krausen only lasted overnight and fell quite quickly. Kicked up the ferm temp to about 25C (yes - "up", as non-airconditioned room temperatures in my neck of the woods hover around 30C.)

Just ordered Wild Brews & American Sour Beers on Amazon yesterday to get a better theoretical grip on Brett & bacteria. Fascinating stuff. :beerbang:
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Re: Sour Mash in BM

Unread postby dinnerstick » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:40 am

niels wrote:There is no Sligro in Belgium, but I see there are some close to the border. If I ever go to Maastricht or Breda or ... again I will try to plan a trip past them.


just remembered that you need a membership to shop at sligro, supposed to be only for restaurants and distributors or whatever.
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Re: Sour Mash in BM

Unread postby dinnerstick » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:49 am

cpa4ny wrote:
Very interesting; my Saison finished @ ~1.011 on Sacc, so I hope Brett B will take it down a few more points. I reckon that about 3 weeks or so should do the trick. If I remember correctly, Orval spends about that amount of time on Brett for its secondary fermentation.

Brett B Trois IPA had a huge krausen, about 10-12 cm. Luckily I have enough headspace in the fermenter, but I think I was at a borderline of needing a blow-off tube. The krausen only lasted overnight and fell quite quickly. Kicked up the ferm temp to about 25C (yes - "up", as non-airconditioned room temperatures in my neck of the woods hover around 30C.)

Just ordered Wild Brews & American Sour Beers on Amazon yesterday to get a better theoretical grip on Brett & bacteria. Fascinating stuff. :beerbang:


i have been doing a lot of 100% brett fermentations, but am pretty novice using brett and bugs outside that context. have done the odd flemish red, and now this sour mash, which hardly counts as it's actually very fast, and very clean after the boil. i am fascinated by lambics but have been reluctant to dive into that style of brewing, as i have a feeling i'l spread myself too thin trying weird mashes and super long fermentations, with limited space. i don't like to make the same thing over and over, but with each new beer or style i work on, i like to brew it enough times to get it to the point where i think it's there, and that takes a few brews, so i'm only doing a certain number of new ones per year, while occasionally cranking out the old favorites.
but the main thing i'll say about brett is that using it as the primary (only) yeast strain is pretty similar to brewing with sacc, once you know the strain, can estimate the pitching rate, and have a handle on how much extra body building ingredients you need to add to the mash.
one weird thing with saisons, i did a mixed fermentation with brett brux and dupont yeast on a saison wort, it finished in a few days at 0.996 or something (from in the 1.060's), and tasted like kerosene! i did ramp it from 24 up to low 30's. i don't know what my point is with that, just another one-off experimental brew that gave an odd result.
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Re: Sour Mash in BM

Unread postby swiggingpig » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:48 pm

niels wrote:Did you make the raspberry puree yourself? If not, where did you buy it?

- Niels

This is what I use in my Raspberry Wheat beer, I don't know if you can get it in your country
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Funkin-Pro-Raspberry-Puree/dp/B004KQAGNQ
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Re: Sour Mash in BM

Unread postby dinnerstick » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:05 pm

I should start a new thread called "The Day I Was Crying Out For A BM50" but naah I'll just add to this one. The original beer in this thread came out really great. It took longer to clear than I had hoped, but once that yeast dropped, taking a bit of doughy/bready taste with it, the tart sourness really shone through, offset a bit by the perception of sweetness you get from fruit, and the not so low finishing gravity. Complexity from brett but not funky at all. So I decided to make a big batch, as I have a 90L conical sitting empty, and don't need to serve the beer for a few months. How to do it with just one BM20..... Simple! ..ish.
Scale the recipe up to 30L, mash, collect 25L wort, cooled to mid-40's. Transfer to an old plastic bucket fermenter, filled right to the top. Inoculate with some raw malt. Fit the bucket with a heat belt and temp controller set to 42, and wrap in blankets and towels. Using the cooling water as strike water, mash the same recipe again, immediately. Cool to 42, inoculate with lacto, and set the BM to keep it at 42, as per the original recipe, with plastic wrap over the surface.
When the pH get down to 3.3 (in 2-3 days), bring the BM back to a boil, top up to 30L, and chill. Knock out to fermenter. Immediately boil the first (bucket) batch, again topping up to 30L, chill, knock out. Oxygenate, and pitch your big starter culture into 60L of nice clean sour wort. Go away for a month!
It's 3 kegs worth, I haven't decided if it's all getting fruit added, or different fruits, or elderflowers, or dry hops...
If it comes out to my liking it will be on tap at the Utrecht Bierbrouwer's Festival, 9 May.
Pics to follow...
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Re: Sour Mash in BM

Unread postby Nesto » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:50 am

dinnerstick wrote:I should start a new thread called "The Day I Was Crying Out For A BM50" but naah I'll just add to this one. The original beer in this thread came out really great. It took longer to clear than I had hoped, but once that yeast dropped, taking a bit of doughy/bready taste with it, the tart sourness really shone through, offset a bit by the perception of sweetness you get from fruit, and the not so low finishing gravity. Complexity from brett but not funky at all. So I decided to make a big batch, as I have a 90L conical sitting empty, and don't need to serve the beer for a few months. How to do it with just one BM20..... Simple! ..ish.
Scale the recipe up to 30L, mash, collect 25L wort, cooled to mid-40's. Transfer to an old plastic bucket fermenter, filled right to the top. Inoculate with some raw malt. Fit the bucket with a heat belt and temp controller set to 42, and wrap in blankets and towels. Using the cooling water as strike water, mash the same recipe again, immediately. Cool to 42, inoculate with lacto, and set the BM to keep it at 42, as per the original recipe, with plastic wrap over the surface.
When the pH get down to 3.3 (in 2-3 days), bring the BM back to a boil, top up to 30L, and chill. Knock out to fermenter. Immediately boil the first (bucket) batch, again topping up to 30L, chill, knock out. Oxygenate, and pitch your big starter culture into 60L of nice clean sour wort. Go away for a month!
It's 3 kegs worth, I haven't decided if it's all getting fruit added, or different fruits, or elderflowers, or dry hops...
If it comes out to my liking it will be on tap at the Utrecht Bierbrouwer's Festival, 9 May.
Pics to follow...

I had to read it 3 times before I finally got what you did ;) Sounds fantastic!
I have on my to do list to do a test and see how big a batch I can actually make on my BM20. How much more than 30L do you think we could fit in a boil?
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Re: Sour Mash in BM

Unread postby Dan » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:58 am

Cervantes wrote:
niels wrote:
Cervantes wrote:But then I've never tried a sour beer. If I did I may find out that I like it.

I suggest you run to the store right now and try some nice sours and report back!

- Niels


Niels,

Easier said than done here in Western Australia mate.

It's only in recent years that we've been able to get anything other than the Australia megaswill.

Craft beers are taking off, but bottle shops that stock a good range are few and far between.

Price also becomes an issue with most decent craft beers costing anything between the equivalent of 3.50 and 7.00 Euros for a small bottle.

Will keep looking though as I'd hate to think that I was missing out on something good on the beer front.

That's the beauty of home brewing, once you find something that you like, you can always then get pretty close making it yourself.


Late reply, I know, but I was just reading back over the thread as I'm about to have a go at this myself.
If you head down to Perth occasionally, try out the International Beer Shop
Freight made it pretty costly for me, but I bit the bullet and gave myself an education in beer styles a few times :D
Pays to try a few so you know what you're aiming for
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Re: Sour Mash in BM

Unread postby dinnerstick » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:27 am

Nesto wrote:I had to read it 3 times before I finally got what you did ;) Sounds fantastic!
I have on my to do list to do a test and see how big a batch I can actually make on my BM20. How much more than 30L do you think we could fit in a boil?


i still have to read it a few more times to figure out what i've done. i will post a pic of 30L in the BM20, you could fit a fair bit more in, i think it would boil, as it has no problem boiling 30L

this whole episode went pretty well, aside from that at first the heated bucket wasn't holding temp, and high 30's can favor nastier critters than you want, so it did start to smell quite whiffy, but i got it better insulated and as it got into the low 40's the stink largely cleared. the only other thing was that on transfer to conical, i had to bring 15L at a time downstairs and then siphon it to the conical in the cellar, the hose slipped off the intermediate vessel while i was dicking around trying to take a photo. the tap poured wort everywhere, i instinctively grabbed it and shut it off. but what's that splashing sound? the hose, submerged in the wort inside the conical, was now siphoning precious wort out the top and onto my feet! not too bad, don't think i even lost a liter, but i do hate cleaning up wort.
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Re: Sour Mash in BM

Unread postby stokie brewer » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:02 am

swiggingpig wrote:
niels wrote:Did you make the raspberry puree yourself? If not, where did you buy it?

- Niels

This is what I use in my Raspberry Wheat beer, I don't know if you can get it in your country
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Funkin-Pro-Raspberry-Puree/dp/B004KQAGNQ


Any chance of you posting the recipe mate?
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Re: Sour Mash in BM

Unread postby dinnerstick » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:55 pm

I assume that request was meant for swiggingpig.... but i'll post my recipe anyways because I love recipes, details, and the like. Why wouldn't I? This is for 25L with 82% total efficiency in beersmith. OG~1.048 or thereabouts. I just do a protein and single high sacc (alpha) rest.
54- 20'
68- 60'
78- mashout
Yeast is WLP650 Brett brux; the grain bill is specifically designed for a 100% brett fermentation. Grow a good sized pitch, don't use a vial. Pale is TF golden promise, cause that's what I have in bulk. Need not be so fancy. Munich is totally optional, depending fruit additions, etc. If no spelt, just use wheat. Raw oats are whole oats from the organic market, can use flaked. Pitch healthy yeast as they get stressed in the low pH. Add fruit as fermentation slows. Expect FG 1.008-1.010, depending on many variables including how much sugary fruit you add.

% kg
Pale malt 56 2.7
Munich 21 1.0
Rye Malt 7 0.34
Wheat Malt 7 0.34
Spelt Malt 5 0.23
Oats (Raw) 5 0.23

=101% due to round-up
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Re: Sour Mash in BM

Unread postby dinnerstick » Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:48 am

Pictures!
I know, it's a messy brew room. Some time I will post a pic of it tidied up, but this was not a tidy brew day. Actually i'm still unpacking from the move.
DSC_0979.jpeg

Here is the first batch of wort souring in a bucket, with yoga mat insulation. it needed an extra blanket, but held temp eventually.
DSC_0985.jpeg

Wort!
DSC_0986.jpeg

cherish the rommel... i'm not ashamed! ok i'm a little bit ashamed.
DSC_0988.jpeg

yeast
DSC_0992.jpeg
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Re: Sour Mash in BM

Unread postby dinnerstick » Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:58 am

A couple days at 41-42, and the pH is nice and low.
DSC_0993.jpeg

A quick boil and chilling to mid 20's. This is exactly 30L (at 85c), plus immersion coil which displaces almost exactly 1 L.
DSC_0996.jpeg

feeding into the fermenter in batches. This is one of the few strains I am comfortable using with no temp control, in my cellar, which is the only reason I could do such a large batch.
DSC_0997.jpeg

60L happily fermenting!
DSC_1001.jpeg

A well deserved beer. This time it's my rye IPA with mandarina bavaria and el dorado. Orange and lemon peel citrus with a spicy rye maltiness. A winner.
DSC_0989.jpeg

DSC_0990.jpeg
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Re: Sour Mash in BM

Unread postby Elderberry » Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:16 am

dinnerstick wrote:Pictures!


Thanks for the pics. People are always posting their huge, perfectly organized, labeled and sanitized brewing spaces. Yours are a relief for those of us who are merely adequate and perhaps average, despite all your high-tech gadgetry.
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