Temp issues (still)

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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby Onthebrew » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:13 pm

gandalf the brew wrote:Sorry for the delay, I forgot to come back and post results.
I have done the same recipe as before with the one change of crush size.
So I set my mill to crush @ 1.6 mm and not the 1.4 I did previously, (on the 1.4, I got an SG of 1.053 @ the fermenter prior to yeast pitching) .

Nothing has changed, the SG @ 20C was 1.053, so no change from the first brew. Perhaps the wort went clear earlier than last time, and the malt pipe level dropped quicker on pump pause.
The one difference that stands out is that the temp was a lot more stable, it only over shot by 1.5 degrees in the earlier stage then went totally stable.
I could just be that BM has seen the same things so is stating 1.6 to be the best crush size.



good that sounds promising. i am finally set to try my first lot 1.4 tomorrow now that world cup and hose pipe bans are out of the way.

hopefully i will see some more stable temps and can try 1.6 next time.
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby Onthebrew » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:26 am

so yesterday brew kept pretty much to temps so happy with that and will stick with 1.4 going forward. i also mashed in at 38 so don't know if that helped
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby Soay4731 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:54 pm

Hi

I have the experience of 41 brews with my 20L, the last 18 of which I have been crushing my own grain. I can't remember when I noticed that the temp during mashing was fluctuating two degrees too high but I don't think it was more than three or four brews back.

Last week I had two bottles explode in the garage, alright I know it has been hot but I have noticed that the last four brews have appeared to over carbonate in the bottles. What I mean is you need two or more glasses when you pour to catch all the froth. With all my brewing I have not had this problem until now.

A theory I have is the high mashing temp is creating long chained sugars which are not fermenting out with normal brewers yeast and wild yeast is feeding on it over time in the bottles.

The last three or four brews have not quite reached the expected OG and have much higher than expected FG, eg. 1021 instead of 1014.

I am taking on board the comments so far regarding crush size and I am going to try 1.4mm but all 18 brews where all using the same crush so that doesn't explain why I am now experiencing temp fluctuations.

So is nobody questioning the temp probe, does it need re-calibrating or replacing? The machine is 5 and half years old.

Rob.
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby mashy » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:49 pm

Soay4731 wrote:Hi

I have the experience of 41 brews with my 20L, the last 18 of which I have been crushing my own grain. I can't remember when I noticed that the temp during mashing was fluctuating two degrees too high but I don't think it was more than three or four brews back.


This is a mashing issue only and I would try buying crushed grain and see if you still have a problem.


Last week I had two bottles explode in the garage, alright I know it has been hot but I have noticed that the last four brews have appeared to over carbonate in the bottles. What I mean is you need two or more glasses when you pour to catch all the froth. With all my brewing I have not had this problem until now.


You have already mentioned you have unfermented sugars... Did you reduce the sugar dose?

Is the beer chilled or ambient? Warm beer gets frothy. I am drinking fridge cooled beer at the moment (too cool really) cos the alternative is too warm.



A theory I have is the high mashing temp is creating long chained sugars which are not fermenting out with normal brewers yeast and wild yeast is feeding on it over time in the bottles.


What wild yeast? I would check the sugar dose. How much are you adding? Reduce it if you know the FG is high.

"Long chain sugars" ... I would venture your are perhaps over thinking this.


The last three or four brews have not quite reached the expected OG and have much higher than expected FG, eg. 1021 instead of 1014.



Are you leaving them at least 2 weeks in primary & then 2 more in secondary?

I am taking on board the comments so far regarding crush size and I am going to try 1.4mm but all 18 brews where all using the same crush so that doesn't explain why I am now experiencing temp fluctuations.


I think the ambient high temps we are experiencing are having an effect on your product, not sure the two are connected.

So is nobody questioning the temp probe, does it need re-calibrating or replacing? The machine is 5 and half years old.

Rob.



If I am honest I don't think there is a equipment issue here. We sound like we have similar BMs of a similar age, so I have been keeping close watch.
My boiling temp is correct. If I fill it with some crushed ice that temp is OK too.

All that said, it's not an expensive or complex to replace. Give it a go?
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby Soay4731 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:21 am

mashy wrote:
Soay4731 wrote:Last week I had two bottles explode in the garage, alright I know it has been hot but I have noticed that the last four brews have appeared to over carbonate in the bottles. What I mean is you need two or more glasses when you pour to catch all the froth. With all my brewing I have not had this problem until now.


You have already mentioned you have unfermented sugars... Did you reduce the sugar dose?

Is the beer chilled or ambient? Warm beer gets frothy. I am drinking fridge cooled beer at the moment (too cool really) cos the alternative is too warm.

I use the German method of freezing 1.5ltrs of wort and then adding that back in at bottling time. I have found a formula to calculate how much wort to use depending on the SG so I am now being more precise.

I drink my beer from the fridge. I have tried freezing the glass which did keep the beer cooler in the glass for longer which was nice.

A theory I have is the high mashing temp is creating long chained sugars which are not fermenting out with normal brewers yeast and wild yeast is feeding on it over time in the bottles.


What wild yeast? I would check the sugar dose. How much are you adding? Reduce it if you know the FG is high.

"Long chain sugars" ... I would venture your are perhaps over thinking this.


The last three or four brews have not quite reached the expected OG and have much higher than expected FG, eg. 1021 instead of 1014.



Are you leaving them at least 2 weeks in primary & then 2 more in secondary?


I ferment in a temp controlled fridge for three weeks. My last brew was the most vigorous I have ever had with frothing out of the air lock and yet finished high at 1021. I was taught that a low mash temp produced more simple sugars and therefore would ferment down to a lower FG and a high mash temp would leave more complex sugars which give a more fuller bodied beer with a higher FG.
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby mashy » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:59 am

I was taught that a low mash temp produced more simple sugars and therefore would ferment down to a lower FG and a high mash temp would leave more complex sugars which give a more fuller bodied beer with a higher FG.


I agree with that principle wholeheartedly.
Remote diagnosis is difficult, by definition it has limited facts.
IMO of that's happened, not sure that is the only thing going on.

Can you not get crushed grain? I only ask because I anyways wonder why people buy whole instead?
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby MonsieurBadgerCheese » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:20 am

Can you not get crushed grain? I only ask because I anyways wonder why people buy whole instead?


I crush my own. Wouldn't it be fair to say that you can buy (more cheaply) in bulk and crush the night before (or on) Brew Day meaning more freshness? I have also heard people advocate a 'double crush' which is not always available from suppliers and which arguably improves efficiency.

To be honest, all that aside, for me the mill is another gadget. Connect it to the the cordless drill - more gadgety again.

I suppose it's similar to those of us who try to grow hops, or culture yeast slants.

For me, milling the malt is part of the fun. Part of the 'process'. Not the quickest, not the most efficient, but makes me feel closer to the magic of turning water into beer.

MBC :)
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby mashy » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:46 am

That's very honest and I agree with you.

I have tried to prove the freshness angle and failed miserably. Conventional thinking seems to decry it too.

That said I too do like a gadget :D
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby Onthebrew » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:43 am

Soay4731 wrote:Hi

I have the experience of 41 brews with my 20L, the last 18 of which I have been crushing my own grain. I can't remember when I noticed that the temp during mashing was fluctuating two degrees too high but I don't think it was more than three or four brews back.

Last week I had two bottles explode in the garage, alright I know it has been hot but I have noticed that the last four brews have appeared to over carbonate in the bottles. What I mean is you need two or more glasses when you pour to catch all the froth. With all my brewing I have not had this problem until now.

A theory I have is the high mashing temp is creating long chained sugars which are not fermenting out with normal brewers yeast and wild yeast is feeding on it over time in the bottles.

The last three or four brews have not quite reached the expected OG and have much higher than expected FG, eg. 1021 instead of 1014.

I am taking on board the comments so far regarding crush size and I am going to try 1.4mm but all 18 brews where all using the same crush so that doesn't explain why I am now experiencing temp fluctuations.

So is nobody questioning the temp probe, does it need re-calibrating or replacing? The machine is 5 and half years old.

Rob.


i would do a water only only run, and if that keeps to temps, then the temp probe likely to be ok. it seems like as was previously suggested to me that its the water outside the malt pipe heating quicker and not circulating quick enough to the temp probe under the grain ive had this problem for a while but the combination of a 38 mach in and 1.4 crush worked for me last time- but i will be keeping an eye on it.
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby Onthebrew » Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:01 pm

Onthebrew wrote:so yesterday brew kept pretty much to temps so happy with that and will stick with 1.4 going forward. i also mashed in at 38 so don't know if that helped


Kept with the above but yesterday’s slipped again, only by 1c but for long periods. Set for 65 but spent time traveling up and down between 64.5 and 66. I guess that acceptable. Had over 6 k grain which may have slowed circ. last time was around 4K.
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby Joe1002 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:53 pm

Soay4731 wrote:The last three or four brews have not quite reached the expected OG and have much higher than expected FG, eg. 1021 instead of 1014.

I would suggest that's not finished, but rather a stuck fermentation. What was you OG, which yeast did you use and what was your fermentation temperature?
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby PerzellBrewing » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:11 pm

Joe1002 wrote:
Soay4731 wrote:The last three or four brews have not quite reached the expected OG and have much higher than expected FG, eg. 1021 instead of 1014.

I would suggest that's not finished, but rather a stuck fermentation. What was you OG, which yeast did you use and what was your fermentation temperature?

Think they were seeing the swings during Mash, not Fermentation Joe. :beer:
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby Onthebrew » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:38 pm

.....i give up- this from saturday!
Attachments
BM IMG_20180825_133429.jpg
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby mashy » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:25 am

OK. If we think of this as a symptom, lets detail what could cause it and explore each one? and tick em off..

1. Pump failure.
2. Bottom seal
3. Grain mix
4. Grain size
5. Water ?
6. Sieves
7. Probe
8. Wiring
9. Controller
10. Mechanical failure

Any more?
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby Onthebrew » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:56 am

last night, i ran a water only mash with 27 litres but no mash pipe. worked 100% fine.

water only with mash pipe, overshoots sometimes but usually Just .5c and never more than 1C

regular mash overshoots up to 2C. Essentially as soon as temp drops below target, as usual the heater comes on to get it back to target. Normally within 30 seconds the heater is off again as it hits target however after a minute or two at target it then continues to climb, maybe spending another couple of minutes at 1C above target then sometimes climbs again. 10 mins later it could be 2C above target. how can such a short burst of heat cause this? it will then after a minute or two there gradually decrease until it drops .5C below and the cycle starts again. it spends more time at the elevated temps on average than the programmed temp i would say. its also unpredictable so i can plan around it and factor in a lower target temp.

last month i tried a specified crush of 1.4mm and it worked a treat. last weekend i ordered the exact same recipe, exact same crush from same supplier, but this time added 200g oats( forgot last time)- and this time it overshot by up to 2C as in the pic.

make of that what you will chaps. its a circulation issue but whats causing it?

one thing i am considering is insulation. if it didnt drop below target temp then the heater wouldn't activate. however if and when did it would also take longer to get back down and may increase even more???
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