Temp issues (still)

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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby Onthebrew » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:08 pm

Right of ordered some grain from geterbrewed who said they can crush it at 1.2mm hopefully this will fix my temp drifting issues.

not sure weather to stick to my tried and tested 23 plus 4, or just start with 27 litres if that will have heat transfer to the sensor.

would there be anything i should look out for if i start with 27 litres as opposed to topping up after mash?
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby mashy » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:51 pm

I would have thought at 27l you will still be topping up the FV? Just bit less.
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby KimboKosmos » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:10 pm

Onthebrew wrote:Right of ordered some grain from geterbrewed who said they can crush it at 1.2mm


Are you sure 1.2 mm is the optimum crush? Speidel recommends 1.6 mm, over at the Aussie homebrewer forum they say the same. At some recent show at the Master Brewer podcast they found that a really course crush will give better brew house efficiency
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby brugen » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:13 pm

KimboKosmos wrote:
Onthebrew wrote:Right of ordered some grain from geterbrewed who said they can crush it at 1.2mm


Are you sure 1.2 mm is the optimum crush? Speidel recommends 1.6 mm, over at the Aussie homebrewer forum they say the same. At some recent show at the Master Brewer podcast they found that a really course crush will give better brew house efficiency


I've never seen a Speidal recommendation for a mill setting. Do you have a source for that? I mean that in an interested rather than an aggressive way :D

I've seen 1.2mm recommended on quite a few posts on this site as a way to avoid wort fountains. I don't know how much truth there is in this or people just copy what they read.

I know I did and started getting my grain milled at 1.2mm. At first I had no wort fountains but I have no idea if this is chance or not. On my last two brews which I did overnight with 9.5kg grain in each with the same stepped mash schedule I had very different results. With the first one I had fountains and lost about 7l of wort. On the second I had no problem at all. I may have doughed in more thoroughly the second time given my previous experience.

Does anyone have evidence to support an optimum crush for wort fountains - I'm not too bothered about efficiency?
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby HobbyBrauer » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:33 pm

mashy wrote:I would have thought at 27l you will still be topping up the FV? Just bit less.


I dont use any top up water or sparge water anywhere in my process. I design my beers to net 23L in FV which allows me to keg a full +20L. In general my process is as follows:

Treat and Pre-Boil (LODO Process) 31L
Grain absorption nets me ~27.5L into boil
Boil off is about 2L and cooling shrinkage about 1 which leaves me with ~24.5L and then I leave behind 1-2L of trub upon transfer.

In terms of crush as I have said in other threads there is no single gap that will always produce the best results for the BM. You need to individually dial in the crush per mill. For example in my MattMill a gap of 1.2mm was to fine this is due to the larger diameter rollers and slows speeds I mill at. I currently use a gap of 1.55mm and have no wort fountain issues. However, if you do crush to fine this will create the channels in the malt pipe and result in fountains. To get the best efficiency you need to have the finest crush while still allowing for adequate circulation (no fountains) crushing larger will stop fountains but you will take a hit in efficiency.
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby KimboKosmos » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:23 am

brugen wrote:I've never seen a Speidal recommendation for a mill setting. Do you have a source for that? I mean that in an interested rather than an aggressive way :D

Sure, look here: https://www.speidels-braumeister.de/en/beer-brewing/tips-and-tricks.html :D .

On the subject of course grinding for better brewhouse effeciency there is an interview with Van Havig https://www.giganticbrewing.com/pages/van-havig at the master brewers podcast http://masterbrewerspodcast.com/079-brewhouse-efficiency-for-the-small-brewer. Somewhere around 00:21:30 he is into the subject that just a crack in the kernel is enough (if I understood it it correctly :? ).
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby mashy » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:41 am

brugen wrote: .........
Does anyone have evidence to support an optimum crush for wort fountains - I'm not too bothered about efficiency?


+1 I am watching this with interest. Like you I am skeptical this will fix the problem.

I had one (and the only) fountain. What a PITA.
My thinking - some years ago was fountains are a pressure build up - finding a way out.
So the plan was to remove the chance of the pressure build up and remove the obvious way out (around the filter)
I have a silicone seal on the top plate. Its fits so snug and it doesn't drop.
Installed the other way up it is a BAC disk.
I add the malt slowly (probably 1kg at a time) and use a mash paddle to make sure I have no clumps.

I have used grain from all over the place in the pass few years - never once asking the crush size. More importantly - no repeat performance.... done lots of other stupid things instead :D
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby Onthebrew » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:42 am

blimey- i'm am getting more confused now. i think i had an email form Ralf suggesting 1.2mm and its been mentioned before .

however, i have never had a wort fountain and i am not bothered about efficiency, it just this was suggested as one of a couple of possible solution to my temp issues noted at the start of the thread.

i tend to only use about 27 or 28 litres in total to get 18 or 19 litres in keg and am happy with that so don't want to use any more water if i can help it.

essentially even if this grain crush doesn't work i have to try it to rule it out before going back once again to speidel-

off to look for that email from Ralf now!
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby Onthebrew » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:46 am

Update, this was from ralf about 15 months ago at the start of my issues.

"depending on the mill the clearance should be 1,3mm to 1,4mm"

i will try and change it for a 1.4mm then.
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby Onthebrew » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:02 am

HobbyBrauer wrote:
mashy wrote:I would have thought at 27l you will still be topping up the FV? Just bit less.


I dont use any top up water or sparge water anywhere in my process. I design my beers to net 23L in FV which allows me to keg a full +20L. In general my process is as follows:

Treat and Pre-Boil (LODO Process) 31L
Grain absorption nets me ~27.5L into boil
Boil off is about 2L and cooling shrinkage about 1 which leaves me with ~24.5L and then I leave behind 1-2L of trub upon transfer.

In terms of crush as I have said in other threads there is no single gap that will always produce the best results for the BM. You need to individually dial in the crush per mill. For example in my MattMill a gap of 1.2mm was to fine this is due to the larger diameter rollers and slows speeds I mill at. I currently use a gap of 1.55mm and have no wort fountain issues. However, if you do crush to fine this will create the channels in the malt pipe and result in fountains. To get the best efficiency you need to have the finest crush while still allowing for adequate circulation (no fountains) crushing larger will stop fountains but you will take a hit in efficiency.



ok in terms of getting better circulation,to avoid the delay between the heater and the temp proble- what do you think the best crush would be?
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby Onthebrew » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:03 am

HobbyBrauer wrote:
mashy wrote:I would have thought at 27l you will still be topping up the FV? Just bit less.


I dont use any top up water or sparge water anywhere in my process. I design my beers to net 23L in FV which allows me to keg a full +20L. In general my process is as follows:

Treat and Pre-Boil (LODO Process) 31L
Grain absorption nets me ~27.5L into boil
Boil off is about 2L and cooling shrinkage about 1 which leaves me with ~24.5L and then I leave behind 1-2L of trub upon transfer.

In terms of crush as I have said in other threads there is no single gap that will always produce the best results for the BM. You need to individually dial in the crush per mill. For example in my MattMill a gap of 1.2mm was to fine this is due to the larger diameter rollers and slows speeds I mill at. I currently use a gap of 1.55mm and have no wort fountain issues. However, if you do crush to fine this will create the channels in the malt pipe and result in fountains. To get the best efficiency you need to have the finest crush while still allowing for adequate circulation (no fountains) crushing larger will stop fountains but you will take a hit in efficiency.



ok in terms of getting better circulation,to avoid the delay between the heater and the temp probe- what do you think the best crush would be?
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby Onthebrew » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:45 am

KimboKosmos wrote:
brugen wrote:I've never seen a Speidal recommendation for a mill setting. Do you have a source for that? I mean that in an interested rather than an aggressive way :D

Sure, look here: https://www.speidels-braumeister.de/en/beer-brewing/tips-and-tricks.html :D .

On the subject of course grinding for better brewhouse effeciency there is an interview with Van Havig https://www.giganticbrewing.com/pages/van-havig at the master brewers podcast http://masterbrewerspodcast.com/079-brewhouse-efficiency-for-the-small-brewer. Somewhere around 00:21:30 he is into the subject that just a crack in the kernel is enough (if I understood it it correctly :? ).



so the official site clearly says 1.6mm but ralf at Spiedal clearly stated 1.3 to 1.4!!!
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby gandalf the brew » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:42 pm

I'm about to brew a Punk IPA clone. Iv'e done it many times before at a crush of 1.2 mm.
So I will set my 3 roller mill at 1.4 and see if it produces any change in efficiency.
I won't go all out to 1.6, because it goes against everything I have learnt in the past 20 brews with my BM.

I'll update this post sometime tomorrow with results.
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby Onthebrew » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:50 am

gandalf the brew wrote:I'm about to brew a Punk IPA clone. Iv'e done it many times before at a crush of 1.2 mm.
So I will set my 3 roller mill at 1.4 and see if it produces any change in efficiency.
I won't go all out to 1.6, because it goes against everything I have learnt in the past 20 brews with my BM.

I'll update this post sometime tomorrow with results.



My grain arriving today is 1.4 so that’s what I will do too. However just had confirmation from speidal that latest tests show 1.6 to be optimum so will try that next time. what issues do you have with 1.6. Wort fountains?
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Re: Temp issues (still)

Unread postby gandalf the brew » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:54 am

I ran my brew exactly the same as my previous sheets.
Dough in @ 50C.
60 mins @ 66C.
Mash out 10 mins @ 78C.
Except I set my mill to crush @ 1.4 mm and not my usual 1.2
I got an SG of 1.053 in the fermenter prior to pitching the yeast.

Guess what, it's exactly the same SG as before.
The 2 things I did notice was when the pump paused the level in the malt tube seemed to drop quicker, and the wort definitely went clear earlier.

So in 2 weeks time I will run again at a crush of 1.6 mm and see if it makes any difference.
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