No-Chill method of wort cooling.

How to get most out of brewing with your Braumeister? Help others and share your tips/best practices.

Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby Soviet » Tue May 20, 2014 2:40 pm

Crusty wrote:DMS is associated with pH & no chilling will not contribute to DMS formation. As far as oxidation, this is not a problem at all at temperatures of 80deg & above, we are boiling the wort after all... DMS, oxidation or Botulism as is the latest fear in the states. Have a go at it, I think you'll be surprised with your results.


The conversion of SMM to DMS occurs at about 1401F. It has no choice, it's chemistry. You may not like this inconvenient fact, but it will happen. An extended stand at those temperatures DOES produce DMS. It's just a matter of whether or not the final amount of DMS ppm is within your or others' flavor threshold.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to minimize DMS precursor through an extended boil or using low SMM base malts. It's definitely possible. But why bother with it unless you absolutely have to? It's not the flavor-stability optimal process. Do it if you absolutely have to, and you may very well make a good beer. But you're not maximizing your chances of doing so, and I wouldn't recommend it to others.
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby Crusty » Tue May 20, 2014 10:20 pm

Soviet wrote:
Crusty wrote:DMS is associated with pH & no chilling will not contribute to DMS formation. As far as oxidation, this is not a problem at all at temperatures of 80deg & above, we are boiling the wort after all... DMS, oxidation or Botulism as is the latest fear in the states. Have a go at it, I think you'll be surprised with your results.


The conversion of SMM to DMS occurs at about 1401F. It has no choice, it's chemistry. You may not like this inconvenient fact, but it will happen. An extended stand at those temperatures DOES produce DMS. It's just a matter of whether or not the final amount of DMS ppm is within your or others' flavor threshold.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to minimize DMS precursor through an extended boil or using low SMM base malts. It's definitely possible. But why bother with it unless you absolutely have to? It's not the flavor-stability optimal process. Do it if you absolutely have to, and you may very well make a good beer. But you're not maximizing your chances of doing so, and I wouldn't recommend it to others.


The debate about chilling vs no chilling has been raging for ages & will continue to do so for some time yet.
Breweries all over Australia sell fresh wort kits which are no chilled in the cube. Why on earth would anyone want to damage their business or future sales by selling fresh wort kits to the general public if flavour stability or DMS would be a problem caused by no chilling?
The reasons I would recommend doing no chill is it's convenient, it's saves a lot of water & the results are great, award winning in fact.
This debate is kinda like the Brew In A Bag debate which still rages on today but has proven to be an alternative to the traditional way of 3V brewing & has also taken prestigious beer awards all over the country. Six judges from a recent competition I entered with an American Pale Ale made no mention of DMS with my entry & I broke every rule in the traditional 3V handbook. The judges stated that my beer would pass as a commercial craft beer & I placed 4th with that entry & I'm pretty happy with that result. I rushed my usual time process to get the beer ready for the competition but I'll be better prepared next year. No chilling throws a lot of curve balls at you because that extra contact time with the hops needs to be taken into account. Cube hopping is what I did for my comp entry & only a bittering addition in the BM @60mins & whirlfloc @10mins. Flavour & aroma additions went into the cube. One observation from my personal experience is that flavour & aroma can diminish a bit when cube hopping compared to throwing those hop additions into your boil & chilling the traditional way. The judges score sheet on my beer reflected that. I scored a bit average for flavour & aroma which will be compensated with hop additions next time I brew this beer & no chill it. There's not a great deal of difference but I think those additions work better in the boil instead of in the cube. This can easily be compensated by hop adjustments to suit your personal taste & to keep everything within style guidelines if you wish to enter brewing competitions. I have no doubt that DMS formation occurs at some stage of the brewing process but if you think it will ruin your beer or you can detect any levels of DMS in your finished beer caused solely from no chilling, I think you'll be bitterly disappointed. There's just far too many awarded beers around the country to simply toss the no chill idea out the window & worry about high levels of DMS wrecking the beer, it's simply unfounded. The results speak for themselves & no chilling will always be a great wort cooling alternative to produce award winning beers. It's hard to break away from tradition but don't get caught up in the banter about it being an inferior way to brew because that's been proven wrong.
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby BrauTim » Tue May 20, 2014 10:40 pm

I'm interested in the hopping aspect of no-chill. In my brewing circle, the current thinking for attempting to maximise the preservation of aroma additions is to add hops below 80°C then chill rapidly. If using the no-chill method then how is aroma affected, does it end up as bitterness because of extended contact?
To brew or not to brew, that would be a stupid question !
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby Soviet » Wed May 21, 2014 8:14 pm

Crusty wrote:The debate about chilling vs no chilling has been raging for ages & will continue to do so for some time yet.
There should be a debate, because people ought to be taught about good brewing practices, and the merits and downfalls of each should be discussed openly without anyone taking things personally.

Crusty wrote:Breweries all over Australia sell fresh wort kits which are no chilled in the cube. Why on earth would anyone want to damage their business or future sales by selling fresh wort kits to the general public if flavour stability or DMS would be a problem caused by no chilling?
The reasons I would recommend doing no chill is it's convenient, it's saves a lot of water...
You pretty much answered your own question right there. Convenience and water conservation—for some people, these are good reasons to do the No Chill Method. However, it doesn't mean the process is optimal.

Crusty wrote: & the results are great, award winning in fact.
Agreed. You CAN make award winning beer with mr. beer kits, without making starters, without a full boil, in a rusty coffee can, etc. The question is, are you maximizing your potential of doing so?

Crusty wrote:This debate is kinda like the Brew In A Bag debate which still rages on today but has proven to be an alternative to the traditional way of 3V brewing & has also taken prestigious beer awards all over the country.
I have seen no good arguments against Brew in A Bag for homebrewers. The only disadvantages to this method only matter at a commercial scale.

Crusty wrote:Six judges from a recent competition I entered with an American Pale Ale made no mention of DMS with my entry & I broke every rule in the traditional 3V handbook. The judges stated that my beer would pass as a commercial craft beer & I placed 4th with that entry & I'm pretty happy with that result.
I would be happy with those results too. However, it doesn't address my argument.

Crusty wrote:I have no doubt that DMS formation occurs at some stage of the brewing process but if you think it will ruin your beer or you can detect any levels of DMS in your finished beer caused solely from no chilling, I think you'll be bitterly disappointed.
Now you seem to be conceding my point about the DMS, but you're changing your argument to "it's not enough to matter." We're getting closer to a consesus :D Of course, it would be more difficult in an IPA, but I assure you that it behooves brewers of pilsner, kolsch or any other light beer, especially with our weak-boiling braumeisters, to worry about DMS. It's not a good flavor.

Crusty wrote:There's just far too many awarded beers around the country to simply toss the no chill idea out the window & worry about high levels of DMS wrecking the beer, it's simply unfounded. The results speak for themselves & no chilling will always be a great wort cooling alternative to produce award winning beers. It's hard to break away from tradition but don't get caught up in the banter about it being an inferior way to brew because that's been proven wrong.
I think it's certainly worthy of discussion, especially in the context of water conservation. I favor a brutally-honest approach to deconstructing the pros and cons of a process instead of saying something like "DMS is not an issue." or "Oxidation is not an issue." or "Microbes are not an issue." I would focus on saying, "here are the weak points of this process, and here's how to mitigate them."
Last edited by Soviet on Thu May 22, 2014 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby BrauTim » Wed May 21, 2014 9:12 pm

This is an interesting discussion - let me try and summarise so far....

If you are pushed for time or need the convenience then no-chill, in whatever form that takes, is a viable option. It may be sub-optimal, you may end up with a good beer, a great beer or maybe an award winning beer. Or it could turn into an infected, oxidised, DMS ridden pile of sh*te and you may be able to lay the blame on the no-chill process.

If you have high standards, entering competitions or are aiming for the highest quality beers you can make on your given equipment and time and convenience is on your side, then no-chill may not be an option you would choose because it may be a sub-optimal process for creating the highest quality wort and thence highest quality beer, you may end up with a good beer, a great beer or maybe an award winning beer. Or it could turn into an infected, oxidised, DMS ridden pile of sh*te, but at least you would know that it wasn't the no-chill that went wrong.

It is the homebrewers choice to read the arguments for and against and then decide what to do based on his or her own circumstances.

Please continue the discussion.....

:beer:
:drink:
To brew or not to brew, that would be a stupid question !
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby Cervantes » Wed May 21, 2014 9:36 pm

BrauTim wrote:This is an interesting discussion - let me try and summarise so far....

If you are pushed for time or need the convenience then no-chill, in whatever form that takes, is a viable option. It may be sub-optimal, you may end up with a good beer, a great beer or maybe an award winning beer. Or it could turn into an infected, oxidised, DMS ridden pile of sh*te and you may be able to lay the blame on the no-chill process.

If you have high standards, entering competitions or are aiming for the highest quality beers you can make on your given equipment and time and convenience is on your side, then no-chill may not be an option you would choose because it may be a sub-optimal process for creating the highest quality wort and thence highest quality beer, you may end up with a good beer, a great beer or maybe an award winning beer. Or it could turn into an infected, oxidised, DMS ridden pile of sh*te, but at least you would know that it wasn't the no-chill that went wrong.

It is the homebrewers choice to read the arguments for and against and then decide what to do based on his or her own circumstances.

Please continue the discussion.....

:beer:
:drink:


:D
Cheers :cheers:
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby Elderberry » Thu May 22, 2014 7:27 am

BrauTim wrote:This is an interesting discussion - let me try and summarise so far....

If you are pushed for time or need the convenience then no-chill, in whatever form that takes, is a viable option. It may be sub-optimal, you may end up with a good beer, a great beer or maybe an award winning beer. Or it could turn into an infected, oxidised, DMS ridden pile of sh*te and you may be able to lay the blame on the no-chill process.

If you have high standards, entering competitions or are aiming for the highest quality beers you can make on your given equipment and time and convenience is on your side, then no-chill may not be an option you would choose because it may be a sub-optimal process for creating the highest quality wort and thence highest quality beer, you may end up with a good beer, a great beer or maybe an award winning beer. Or it could turn into an infected, oxidised, DMS ridden pile of sh*te, but at least you would know that it wasn't the no-chill that went wrong.

It is the homebrewers choice to read the arguments for and against and then decide what to do based on his or her own circumstances.

Please continue the discussion.....

:beer:
:drink:


Yep, that's pretty much what I'm getting out of it as well.

One rule I have for myself is to touch the beer as little as possible. Adding a vessel to the brewing process increases the chance of infection. I do hate the amount of water I use to chill (though I used rainwater for my last 2 brews), but I'll stick with my immersion chiller for now.
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby Soviet » Thu May 22, 2014 7:05 pm

BrauTim wrote:This is an interesting discussion - let me try and summarise so far....

If you are pushed for time or need the convenience then no-chill, in whatever form that takes, is a viable option. It may be sub-optimal, you may end up with a good beer, a great beer or maybe an award winning beer. Or it could turn into an infected, oxidised, DMS ridden pile of sh*te and you may be able to lay the blame on the no-chill process.

If you have high standards, entering competitions or are aiming for the highest quality beers you can make on your given equipment and time and convenience is on your side, then no-chill may not be an option you would choose because it may be a sub-optimal process for creating the highest quality wort and thence highest quality beer, you may end up with a good beer, a great beer or maybe an award winning beer. Or it could turn into an infected, oxidised, DMS ridden pile of sh*te, but at least you would know that it wasn't the no-chill that went wrong.

It is the homebrewers choice to read the arguments for and against and then decide what to do based on his or her own circumstances.

Please continue the discussion.....

:beer:
:drink:


I think that's a very good way of putting it. :p
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby royco » Sat May 31, 2014 11:43 am

Indeed, strong words, especially in the context of a generally non-commercial community. "I don't know much about art, but I know what I like.." is generally met with scorn by the art snobs. I believe it is the ONLY valid appraisal. As a newbie I have gone from IC to NC to (recently) A Therminator and IMVHO I taste no discernible difference after adjusting hop additions for no-chill. There are charts to help calculate this. But then, I don't know much about beer but I know what I like.
+1 Brautim.
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby Batz » Sat May 31, 2014 12:14 pm

I no chill much more than I chill now days, works well for me. Cube hopping really works as well.

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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby NewEnglandBrewer » Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:35 pm

It has been a while. So I thought I would report back.

I just a few minutes ago finished the boil of my 8'th beer in my Braumeister 20L. LIke all previous brews (except for the first) I am not rapidly chilling the wort. I'm simply letting the wort cool at room temperature, with a fan blowing on the side of the Braumeister. So far I've had no problems with infections or DMS. If I intended to age a beer longer than 6 months, I may chill to be on the safe side. Until then, I will continue no-chilling.

To simplify things even more, I've become more precise with my hop additions.
Bittering hops are added to the wort 30 minutes before the end of the boil.
I use dry hopping for flavor hops. Flavor hops are not added untill until the beer is transfered to the corny keg.
I artificially pressurize after the beer is transfered to the corny keg.

So far I've brewed

two humble brown ales.
one IPA
two Belgian style Sessions
two Cherry Lemon Wheat ales (cherries were pasteurized and added after primary fermentation, lemon and honey added when kegging) of which I drank only one so far (one is still completing secondary fermentation and aging).
one (boiled today) harvest ale (sort of an elaborate Oktoberfest). I plan on pasteurizing cherries and cranberries and will add them after primary fermentation is complete.

Cheers.
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby niels » Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:22 pm

NewEnglandBrewer wrote:...
I'm simply letting the wort cool at room temperature, with a fan blowing on the side of the Braumeister.
...

How long does it take to cool the wort to room temperature using this method?

Do you use a fermentation fridge? If so, wouldn't it more practical to drain the wort hot to the fermentor and chill using the fridge?

- Niels
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby NewEnglandBrewer » Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:54 pm

niels wrote:How long does it take to cool the wort to room temperature using this method?
- Niels

Boil was compleat at 3:00 PM Boston time today.
By 4:00 PM temp was down to 62C.
Just now, 5:44 PM, I checked the temp. It is 43 C.
I will not pitch yeast until temp is below 25 C. If it is not below 25 C before I go to bed tonight, I will pitch yeast first thing in the morning.

For the last five brews my technique has been
1) cover the kettle with a net (to prevent dust from falling in)
2) place a fan to blow against the kettle
3) turn on braumeister's pump once the temperature was low enough
4) wait

niels wrote:Do you use a fermentation fridge? If so, wouldn't it more practical to drain the wort hot to the fermentor and chill using the fridge?

- Niels

I do not have a fermentation fridge. My fridge has enough space for 1 corny keg at a time ..... the keg I am drinking! :cheers:

-John
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby NewEnglandBrewer » Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:49 pm

NewEnglandBrewer wrote:I will not pitch yeast until temp is below 25 C. If it is not below 25 C before I go to bed tonight, I will pitch yeast first thing in the morning.


Wort temp was at 29 C when I went to bed last night. At 7:30 AM this morning temp was at 24C. I pitched yeast and transfered to my conical fermenter this morning using the pump built into the braumeister. (see here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=216 )

In short, the temp was below 60 C (safely below DMS producing temperatures) in little more than one hour after end of boil. Yeast was pitched within 15 hours of end of boil (little risk of contamination given my hygienically clean methods and equipment).

:cheers:
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