No-Chill method of wort cooling.

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No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby NewEnglandBrewer » Sun May 18, 2014 2:16 pm

I have always stressed about timing wort chilling and beginning yeast fermentation before wild yeast and bacteria invade my wort. I didn't think I would have enough time to brew yesterday, but I wanted to! My big fear was that I would not be able to promptly begin chilling the wort after the boil. I knew I would not be in control of my day's schedule.

It was the perfect opportunity to test out a modified version of “no-chill” method of wort cooling. With the no-chill method, no wort chiller is used. No-Chill seems to come from various Australian forums, thank you again Australians! There is also a lot of discussion of it on HomeBrewTalk and elsewhere.

After the boil, you simply deprive the wort of oxygen until the temperature drops to the temperature for pitching yeast. The wort is then aerated and yeast added. I've read many fancy ways of isolating the wort from oxygen. But, I decided to use the simplest approach.

After the boil, I filled a balloon with CO2. Next, I slowly leaked the CO2 from the balloon over the wort in the Braumeister, then gently put the cover on with as little turbulence as possible. After that, I left for the evening. When I came back four hours later, the temperature was down to about 50 degrees C.

First thing this morning, the temperature was down to 22 degrees C. So, I aerated, pitched yeast and transferred the wort to the fermenter.

Like everything else, there are some subtleties you have to be aware of, like modifications to hop schedules. And, if you are brewing light ales you may want to consider the effects of DMS (dimethyl sulfide). I almost always brew strong ales, so I am not too worried about DMS.

After designing the beer, setting up the mash schedule, crushing the grains, adding the water, and measuring the hops, I let the Braumeister do its thing. I did not have to spend all day paying attention to the brewing process.

Yesterday's batch was my third with the Braumeister. I have to say, I love the elegant simplicity of the Braumeister. It gives the homebrewer control over everything important, while saving time!!!!!!!!!!! It enables huge improvements over what I could do in my little apartment with BIAB and my cajun electric turkey fryer.

Cheers! :cheers:
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby Cervantes » Sun May 18, 2014 9:49 pm

NewEnglandBrewer wrote:
After the boil, I filled a balloon with CO2. Next, I slowly leaked the CO2 from the balloon over the wort in the Braumeister, then gently put the cover on with as little turbulence as possible. After that, I left for the evening. When I came back four hours later, the temperature was down to about 50 degrees C.
Cheers! :cheers:


That's a new one for me. Most guys transfer the hot wort into a cube (Read container) using the near boiling wort to sterilise the cube, place a lid on to make it air tight and cool the wort in the cube. There is then no risk of infection.

I had never considered letting the wort cool overnight in the BM. I like the idea of the CO2 blanket, but think that if it was me I would have then covered the top of the BM with clingfilm/gladwrap before putting the lid on, just as a belt and braces approach to prevent any stray nasties drifting in through the slots in the lid. But then I may be a bit on the paranoid side :?

I do like this idea though as it's one less container to clean if you do decide to let things cool overnight.

I'll be interested to hear how this brew turns out.
Cheers :cheers:
Andy
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby pmac » Mon May 19, 2014 1:48 am

When I was BIABing, I always let my wort cool overnight in the 19 ltr pot before dumping in the fermenter the next day when at pitching temps (I never had an infection using this method). I just covered the pot with gladwrap, popped on the lid and covered the steam outlet to stop air from sucking in as it cooled.

I now use proper cubes and think this is a far safer method as it's sealed and the heat will kill off nasties.

Interesting method you used for sure!
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby Soviet » Mon May 19, 2014 2:53 pm

I'm not sure I'd be thanking the Australians for this method. Just because you MIGHT be able to get away with something, doesn't mean you ought to do it, or that it will always work. The no-chill method has two major three drawbacks/risks—DMS buildup, oxidation, and prolonged exposure to competing microbes. Even if oxidation can be minimized, the other two are deal breakers for me. Besides, with a wort chiller you can finish your brew day instead of extending it into the next. I truly don't understand the appeal of the no-chill method.
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby BrauTim » Mon May 19, 2014 3:53 pm

Soviet wrote:I'm not sure I'd be thanking the Australians for this method. Just because you MIGHT be able to get away with something, doesn't mean you ought to do it, or that it will always work. The no-chill method has two major three drawbacks/risks—DMS buildup, oxidation, and prolonged exposure to competing microbes. Even if oxidation can be minimized, the other two are deal breakers for me. Besides, with a wort chiller you can finish your brew day instead of extending it into the next. I truly don't understand the appeal of the no-chill method.


Seems odd, as loads of Ozzies use this method seemingly without problems.......

Where does the DMS come from if it's been driven off in the boil?

Oxidation could be reduced by flushing the container with CO2 and the container should be mostly free of microbes from the heat of the wort as it's dropped into the container. If it means that a brew day could be completed the following day then this is surely a viable option to be considered, not everyone has the time or convenience or energy to brew in a single day, especially now that we have been exploring a number of methods to spread the load over a number of days.

I am currently exploring a 4 day brewday to fit in with my lifestyle*, no-chill cubes could be a great addition to my current methods.

:beer:

*Evening 1 - Fill water, crush grains, salts, treatment, prep equipment & fermenter (could even start your yeast at this point if pitching on day 4 and not bothered about spent wort)
Evening 2 - Mash
Evening 3 - Boil (cool optional), pitch
Evening 4 - Pitch (if not cooled & pitched from night before), clean-up
To brew or not to brew, that would be a stupid question !
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby NewEnglandBrewer » Mon May 19, 2014 4:01 pm

BrauTim wrote:
Seems odd, as loads of Ozzies use this method seemingly without problems.......

Where does the DMS come from if it's been driven off in the boil?

Oxidation could be reduced by flushing the container with CO2 and the container should be mostly free of microbes from the heat of the wort as it's dropped into the container. If it means that a brew day could be completed the following day then this is surely a viable option to be considered, not everyone has the time or convenience or energy to brew in a single day, especially now that we have been exploring a number of methods to spread the load over a number of days.

:beer:


I agree, and I realize what I am doing is not pure “no-chill” as it is defined in the Australian forums. I am simply using the “no –chill” technique as inspiration.
I don’t see how the wort could be contaminated using the technique I described.

If 1) the wort in the kettle is warmer than the air in my apartment, and 2) the humidity of the air in the kettle is greater than the humidity of the air in my apartment, then no ambient air can be pulled into the kettle while it is cooling with the lid on.

The water in the wort will be constantly evaporating. There will be greater water vapor pressure inside the pot compared to outside. If the water vapor is lighter than the CO2, the water vapor will escape through the small vent holes in the cover. If the water vapor is heavier than the CO2, the CO2 will be pushed up through the vent holes. Most likely there will be an exchange of energy between the water vapor and the CO2, and a mixture of CO2 and water vapor will escape through the vent holes.

However, if not using a cube, it is very important to move the wort to the fermentor before the wort temperature drops below the temperature in my apartment.
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby NewEnglandBrewer » Mon May 19, 2014 5:07 pm

I admit I have not fully analyzed the chemistry of the problem (vapor pressure etc). But there is anecdotal evidence to support the validity of the technique. I know for a fact that before the 1920s, most towns in Massachusetts had taverns that brewed their own beer. Also, before the 1920s, most families brewed their own beer. I doubt many spent any effort to quickly cool the wort before fermenting.
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby rocketman » Mon May 19, 2014 8:34 pm

I have tried the technique with good results, I have not done a comparison but the beer was really good. I have read somewhere about that there may be a danger of botulinum bacteria, but on the other hand I listened to an episode of basic brewing where they had had a cube in storage for almost a year..
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby Soviet » Mon May 19, 2014 9:19 pm

BrauTim wrote:Seems odd, as loads of Ozzies use this method seemingly without problems.......
Just because a lot of people do the wrong thing, doesn't mean there isn't a better way :D

BrauTim wrote:Where does the DMS come from if it's been driven off in the boil?
It's not all driven off, it is constantly being reformed by applying heat to SMM. Between boil and fermentation temperature, the residual heat continues the reaction SMM to DMS with the DMS remaining in solution. here's a good article: http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/tag/smm/

BrauTim wrote:Oxidation could be reduced by flushing the container with CO2
You show me these hoardes of CO2 flushers. Plus, you would have to have the container pressurized at least at atmosphere for oxygen to not replace the CO2. I don't see that this is practical for most homebrewers.

BrauTim wrote: and the container should be mostly free of microbes from the heat of the wort as it's dropped into the container. If it means that a brew day could be completed the following day then this is surely a viable option to be considered, not everyone has the time or convenience or energy to brew in a single day, especially now that we have been exploring a number of methods to spread the load over a number of days.
Mostly free of microbes is right. You can always make things easier for yourself in your process, but don't delude yourself into thinking that you're maximizing your beer's quality by doing so. I have no problem with people cutting corners for the sake of the enjoyment of the hobby, but you won't find "Extended Cooling" as part of any respectable brewery's quality control program. Except maybe if they're making a lambic or something.
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby BrauTim » Mon May 19, 2014 9:58 pm

Soviet wrote:
BrauTim wrote:Seems odd, as loads of Ozzies use this method seemingly without problems.......
Just because a lot of people do the wrong thing, doesn't mean there isn't a better way :D

BrauTim wrote:Where does the DMS come from if it's been driven off in the boil?
It's not all driven off, it is constantly being reformed by applying heat to SMM. Between boil and fermentation temperature, the residual heat continues the reaction SMM to DMS with the DMS remaining in solution. here's a good article: http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/tag/smm/

BrauTim wrote:Oxidation could be reduced by flushing the container with CO2
You show me these hoardes of CO2 flushers. Plus, you would have to have the container pressurized at least at atmosphere for oxygen to not replace the CO2. I don't see that this is practical for most homebrewers.

BrauTim wrote: and the container should be mostly free of microbes from the heat of the wort as it's dropped into the container. If it means that a brew day could be completed the following day then this is surely a viable option to be considered, not everyone has the time or convenience or energy to brew in a single day, especially now that we have been exploring a number of methods to spread the load over a number of days.
Mostly free of microbes is right. You can always make things easier for yourself in your process, but don't delude yourself into thinking that you're maximizing your beer's quality by doing so. I have no problem with people cutting corners for the sake of the enjoyment of the hobby, but you won't find "Extended Cooling" as part of any respectable brewery's quality control program. Except maybe if they're making a lambic or something.


Thankyou for expanding on your comments. A perfection of means and confusion of aims seems to be our problem :)
To brew or not to brew, that would be a stupid question !
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby NewEnglandBrewer » Mon May 19, 2014 11:29 pm

Soviet wrote:...... you won't find "Extended Cooling" as part of any respectable brewery's quality control program.


Strong words!

While I suppose your words may be true for a brewery brewing hundreds of gallons of beer at a time which will not cool on its own in a matter of 12 to 24 hours. But what about small home brewers and small tavern brewers brewing smaller batches of wort which cool more quickly on their own with little effort.

I've been brewing more or less for 20 years. I've always used a wort chiller. But now I am second guessing the need for it.

Do you have any information to share regarding what home brewers and small tavern brewers did in the 1800s?

Are you presuming by default their beers were of poor qualtiy?

I would never use such strong words about anyones beer I've never tasted.

Here is an interesting discussion.

http://blackcreekbrewery.wordpress.com/ ... y-brewers/
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby Cervantes » Tue May 20, 2014 4:48 am

Soviet wrote:I'm not sure I'd be thanking the Australians for this method. Just because you MIGHT be able to get away with something, doesn't mean you ought to do it, or that it will always work. The no-chill method has two major three drawbacks/risks—DMS buildup, oxidation, and prolonged exposure to competing microbes. Even if oxidation can be minimized, the other two are deal breakers for me. Besides, with a wort chiller you can finish your brew day instead of extending it into the next. I truly don't understand the appeal of the no-chill method.


I personally chill my beer as well, but that's more because it's suits the time that I have available rather than due to any concerns regarding DMS and the like.

I'd be happy to No Chill Cube if it suited my purposes.

To my mind there are far too many people using this method to make great beers (including competition winners) for me to think that it has any detectable adverse effects on the beer.
Cheers :cheers:
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby Crusty » Tue May 20, 2014 5:49 am

Soviet wrote:I'm not sure I'd be thanking the Australians for this method. Just because you MIGHT be able to get away with something, doesn't mean you ought to do it, or that it will always work. The no-chill method has two major three drawbacks/risks—DMS buildup, oxidation, and prolonged exposure to competing microbes. Even if oxidation can be minimized, the other two are deal breakers for me. Besides, with a wort chiller you can finish your brew day instead of extending it into the next. I truly don't understand the appeal of the no-chill method.


I'd like to clarify some really bad misconceptions out there. I no chill & have been doing so for a couple of years now with not one infection, oxidation problem or DMS problem.
DMS is associated with pH & no chilling will not contribute to DMS formation. As far as oxidation, this is not a problem at all at temperatures of 80deg & above, we are boiling the wort after all. I use a 20lt food safe, BPA free cube for no chill. Sanitize with starsan & have it ready for the wort. After boiling, I leave the wort sit for 15-20mins with the lid on. After that, I whirlpool the BM & leave the wort for another 15mins or so. The wort goes into the cube above 80degC & away you go. As far as oxidation, I just open the tap on the BM & let it rip. It splashes into the cube as it fills & as the temps are above 80degc, oxidation is zero. Never ever has this process been in any way detrimental to the finished beer. One thing I would like to mention though is hop utilisation. No chilling will increase your IBU due to the longer contact time with the hot cubed wort & most will adjust their hop additions to compensate for that. I have found from personal experience that to my taste, the bitterness needs to adjusted by 20mins. So a 0min no chill addition will basically give you a hop IBU of a 20min addition if you were to chill your beer. The main advantage of the no chill method is to brew when you want to without having a spare fermenter ready. Ferment at will or when the fermenting fridge is spare. The other plus is water savings & ambient tap water temps here in Summer. I can't get my wort down below 26deg without some sort of ice bath & the amount of water wastage to get it down to there is pretty high.
So to sum it up, no chill will not cause DMS, oxidation or Botulism as is the latest fear in the states. Have a go at it, I think you'll be surprised with your results.
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby rocketman » Tue May 20, 2014 6:32 am

For completeness, here is the article I was referring to in my post above:
http://beerandwinejournal.com/botulism/

And the No-Chill experiment from Basic Brewing Radio,
July 18, 2013 - No Chill Aging Experiment
http://traffic.libsyn.com/basicbrewing/ ... illage.mp3
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Re: No-Chill method of wort cooling.

Unread postby Dicko » Tue May 20, 2014 6:58 am

I chill because it suits the way I do things on brew day.

I have no chilled with good success and as Crusty said you need to adjust your hop additions.
Just like any recipe formulation a little bit of adjustment will give you the result you require.

Brewing texts say that DMS can occur with delayed chilling and this may be so with a fine Pils or similar.
I cant comment on this as I have not ever done a Pils with that method.

In defence of no chilling there are many hundreds of "Fresh Wort Kits" that From what I believe are made from this method and sold the brewers all over Australia without incident.

There has been hundreds of arguments on many brewing forums re chill v no chill and I guess that this will go on for some time yet.
I think I will just have a beer :drink: :cheers:
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