Does the Braumeister suffer from Hot Side Aeration (HSA)?

How to get most out of brewing with your Braumeister? Help others and share your tips/best practices.

Does the Braumeister suffer from Hot Side Aeration (HSA)?

Unread postby BrauTim » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:25 pm

I've splitted the responses about HSA to a new thread as it is a discussion on its own. I added the question about HSA from the original post as a quote to give you full context. -Niels

tdoft wrote:I do have one hang up though and I'm hoping you experienced braumeisters can talk me down. Hot side aeration. If you accept that it can occur in the mash (as I've read it can) then the bm system of mashing is fundamentally flawed. The hot wort cascades down the side of the malt pipe during the entire mash and is exposed to oxygen as it falls and as it splashes down at the bottom of the kettle.

My thinking is that this couldn't be very significant since everyone here and at homebrewtalk seems very impressed with their results with the braumeister. I do wonder though if the defects of hsa may show up later as the beer ages. Can any experienced braumeister brewers comment on the longevity/overall quality of your beers now compared to when you brewed on other systems?

Welcome to the forum.

There are many myths in homebrewing, I believe that HSA is one of them! It probably happens, but very rarely and probably under specific circumstances, the myth has been propagated via the internet, bad news tends to spread like wildfire, so one man's HSA is the internets latest homebrewing myth.

By way of example, plenty of commercial brewers circulate their wort and introduce oxygen at mash time and don't appear to suffer.
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Re: hey all!

Unread postby Nesto » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:54 pm

Take a listen to this podcast about HSA.
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/475
Dr. Bamforth gives a great tutorial. My net: HSA is real, but not much to worry about for home brewers and maybe even a net positive.

I don't have the link, but I recall reading about a BM brewer in Europe winning quite a few competitions. My own brew quality has been excellent so far - as good as my previous 3 vessel MoreBeer system.
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Re: hey all!

Unread postby Dicko » Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:07 pm

Welcome to the forum

This is not the sub forum for the answers to your questions so maybe Niels can move the answers;

HSA is oxygen that is absorbed by hot wort.
When the B M recirculates the wort there would be some o2 dissolved but the very action of boiling drives off all oxygen, hence the need to aerate or oxygenate once the wort is cool.
There would be very little oxygen actually in the kettle during the mash particularly if you leave the lid on like most people would do.
In Biab lifting your bag would cause some HSA as would mishandling of wort by pumping or gravity draining to the kettle in a 3v system. I could well mention no chill as well.

If you are looking for an answer of "yes", all beers made with the BM suffer from HSA, then you need to heed HBT as the rest of the world using this equipment doesn't seem to have a problem. :D

You won't look back once you get the BM. Just for the ease of cleaning if for nothing else.

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Re: hey all!

Unread postby Cervantes » Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:05 am

I'm with Dicko on this one.

Any oxygen introduced during the mashing would be boiled out.

My reading leads me to believe that HSA is only a problem between boiling and cooling. So if you cool in the BM by means of an immersion cooler for example, you will be introducing next to no oxygen to the wort if you lower the cooler in slowly whilst the wort is still boiling.

Once cooled you need to oxygenate anyway for the yeast.

On a side note I used an oxygen canister and stone to oxygenate for the first time last brew and it made a huge difference. Lag time was reduced drastically and the amount of yeast cake produced was amazing, so the yeast must have been very happy and healthy.

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Re: hey all!

Unread postby tdoft » Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:52 pm

Thanks guys! I really appreciate your input. I never considered HSA to be an issue BEFORE the boil either. Then I watched the video chat with John Kimmich (of Heady Topper fame) on the this website and it got me thinking about it more. (BTW the Kimmich video is awesome-well worth watching especially for hopheads like me) I remembered that this topic came up in the HBT Braumeister thread and I went back to it and actually read the links that validate that it occurs prior to the boil. It's likely real but unavoidable as Dicky points out. It's just that the Braumeister system of mashing likely causes more than other techniques.

Still, my basement brewery-or should I say braury?-can't take up more than about 30 square feet and it must be electric (and will be solar powered I might add:) so the Braumeister is the obvious choice. Can't wait to place my order.

BTW I'm a family practice MD in Colorado and do lots of nursing home work on the side. I'm hoping the BM system will allow me to continue to cultivate my passion for ultrahoppy beers while still being a good dad to my 2 girls Macy (age 8 ) and Savannah (age 6). I'm chosing the 50L size so that I can give away lots of beer to my friends and neighbors but not have to brew more often than I have time for. When I retire I'd like to own a taphouse of my own. I like the idea of easily scaling up to a 200L or 500L BM for that purpose. My favorite commercial beer is La Cumbre Elevate IPA from New Mexico.
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Re: hey all!

Unread postby BrauTim » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:06 pm

Nesto wrote:Take a listen to this podcast about HSA.
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/475
Dr. Bamforth gives a great tutorial. My net: HSA is real, but not much to worry about for home brewers and maybe even a net positive.

I don't have the link, but I recall reading about a BM brewer in Europe winning quite a few competitions. My own brew quality has been excellent so far - as good as my previous 3 vessel MoreBeer system.


After listening to this podcast, I'll concede that HSA exists :D

The subject of staling of beer sounds like a far more complex subject with no simple answer and the question of HSA contributing to staling has many answers. Charlie does say it's one of the last issues to be resolved in brewing. A very interesting podcast.

Interesting to note that he says that HSA in the mash may be a benefit if those compounds are driven off in a vigorous boil, or that the yeast can clean up staling compounds during the ferment, as you say Nesto it's possibly a net benefit!

One brewery even bubbling air through hot wort to purge off volatile compounds.

So maybe those clever BM designers know a thing or two about HSA and the benefits it can bring for beer stability and designed the BM to deliberately aerate the wort so staling compounds would be driven off during the boil.

The Norwegian competition winner brewing on his BM is on Basic Brewing Radio April 21, 2011 - Jan Halvor Fjeld available from this link
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Re: hey all!

Unread postby Nesto » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:38 pm

BrauTim wrote:After listening to this podcast, I'll concede that HSA exists :D

The subject of staling of beer sounds like a far more complex subject with no simple answer and the question of HSA contributing to staling has many answers. Charlie does say it's one of the last issues to be resolved in brewing. A very interesting podcast.

Interesting to note that he says that HSA in the mash may be a benefit if those compounds are driven off in a vigorous boil, or that the yeast can clean up staling compounds during the ferment, as you say Nesto it's possibly a net benefit!

One brewery even bubbling air through hot wort to purge off volatile compounds.

So maybe those clever BM designers know a thing or two about HSA and the benefits it can bring for beer stability and designed the BM to deliberately aerate the wort so staling compounds would be driven off during the boil.

The Norwegian competition winner brewing on his BM is on Basic Brewing Radio April 21, 2011 - Jan Halvor Fjeld available from this link


Yep BrauTim, that's the brewer I was thinking of.

I love listening to Charlie. I first met him at the Craft Brewers Conference a few years ago. And then again a couple times at UC Davis new student orientation...my daughter goes there - not for brewing science though :( While the other parents are asking various professors about how they can helicopter parent their kids, I cornered Charlie and had a private tutorial about secondary fermentation with Brett. I was thrilled! Even a topic that he hasn't done research on, he was a treasure trove of knowledge.
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Re: hey all!

Unread postby cpa4ny » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:16 am

Nesto wrote:
...I cornered Charlie and had a private tutorial about secondary fermentation with Brett.....



Hi Nesto - would be awesome if you could kindly share some tips on this! :beer:
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Re: hey all!

Unread postby Nesto » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:44 am

cpa4ny wrote:
Nesto wrote:
...I cornered Charlie and had a private tutorial about secondary fermentation with Brett.....



Hi Nesto - would be awesome if you could kindly share some tips on this! :beer:

I'll post in the General Brewing forum :beer:
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Re: hey all!

Unread postby BrauTim » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:18 pm

Nesto wrote:
I love listening to Charlie. I first met him at the Craft Brewers Conference a few years ago. And then again a couple times at UC Davis new student orientation...my daughter goes there - not for brewing science though :( While the other parents are asking various professors about how they can helicopter parent their kids, I cornered Charlie and had a private tutorial about secondary fermentation with Brett. I was thrilled! Even a topic that he hasn't done research on, he was a treasure trove of knowledge.


Wow - a great experience from the guru himself, you are honoured! I've read his book ''Beer is proof God Loves Us" and listened to a few of his podcasts, he is engaging and funny and his delivery is typical Yorkshireman.

:beer:
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Re: Does the Braumeister suffer from Hot Side Aeration (HSA)

Unread postby tdoft » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:07 am

I finally got that link to work:) Definitely not losing sleep over HSA concerns anymore. Charlie is freakishly knowledgeable about beer. It would be awesome to hear his thoughts on the Braumeister systems specifically. If any forum member is in the Davis area.... :cheers: Thanks again for your input. My order for my BMP 50L will go to Morebeer4U the second swmbo gives the nod :beerbang:
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Re: Does the Braumeister suffer from Hot Side Aeration (HSA)

Unread postby Nesto » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:35 am

Unfortunately for this forum, I wasn't a BM user when I got to talk with him :)
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