Rattling pump sound

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Rattling pump sound

Unread postby NewLine » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:48 pm

This morning, quickly after the mashing started, my pump started to rattle. The sound resembles very well the sound the pump makes on its initial pump ventilation step.

When I paused the process, or when the pump stops during the mash obviously the noise stopped, but when the pump started again, the noise started only when the wort was about to overflow the cilinder. As if the extra effort made it rattle. Towards the end of the mash the rattling decreased.

After the brew I disassembled the pump and did not notice anything special.

Anyone else had this, or have an idea what the cause might have been?
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Re: Rattling pump sound

Unread postby Nesto » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:43 pm

NewLine wrote:This morning, quickly after the mashing started, my pump started to rattle. The sound resembles very well the sound the pump makes on its initial pump ventilation step.

When I paused the process, or when the pump stops during the mash obviously the noise stopped, but when the pump started again, the noise started only when the wort was about to overflow the cilinder. As if the extra effort made it rattle. Towards the end of the mash the rattling decreased.

After the brew I disassembled the pump and did not notice anything special.

Anyone else had this, or have an idea what the cause might have been?


My first guess is some grain was caught in the impeller. Maybe it finally was pulverized or worked free near the end of the mash and that's why the rattle decreased. 2nd guess is the impeller might be out of balance - maybe from grain or something. Run it again in manual with just water and see if the sound is still there. If the rattle comes back, contact your dealer or Speidel (http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/advi ... ister.html). Speidel's service has been very good - if there's something wrong they will certainly help.
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Re: Rattling pump sound

Unread postby niels » Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:04 pm

I don't know if your 20l has the same pump as my 50l, but if it is we could swap out the impeller and check if the noise is swapped too...

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Re: Rattling pump sound

Unread postby Luis Coentrao » Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:16 pm

Yesterday I made my first Full Volume (no sparge) mash with the BM.
The mash volume overfilled the malt pipe also (30L). As as consequence I could not stir the grain during the mash. I stopped the mash few times due to some wort fountains. Shaked up and down the malt pipe and the fountains disapeared but... some grain came out (not much). The pump also ratled at the beggining, disapeared at the end.

Next time I'll mash with 28L and "sparge" with only 2L. Similar to what is suggested in the Speidel "Bock" recipe.
I asked Ralph what they usually do. They start with 23L, add water during the mash and "sparge" with 2L.
Last edited by Luis Coentrao on Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rattling pump sound

Unread postby Lylo » Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:44 am

I doubt if it was the water volume that caused the fountains, it was most likely the grains, or crush or something else.
I do a full volume mash all the time and the only geyser problem I ever had was with a stout, using double crushed roasted barley, and that was in an early brew using conventional BM practices.
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Re: Rattling pump sound

Unread postby Luis Coentrao » Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:13 am

Lylo, I agree with you. The ratling is probably due to some grain that came out the malt pipe after "shaking" it (due to some wort fountains, very common IMO). But it's a consequence of the impossibilty to stir the grain during the No sparge mash (we need to do something to solve the fountains... shaking the malt pipe is a solution, it worked for me, and it's described in the Speidel recipe).
However, If we reserve only 1-2L to "sparge" and Mash with around 28L, we are able to lift the upper filter from the malt pipe and stir the grain if we see wort fountains. Very simple procedure that also improves Mash Eff. I did it in September and it worked great (Mash Eff 88% by Beersmith).This time I tried the No Sparge method with the same recipe. Not fully convinced (the innability to stir the grain during he mash... don't like). Problems arised, Mash Eff coming down to 80%.
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Re: Rattling pump sound

Unread postby perdido » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:14 pm

It sounds like CAVITATION to me.
Make sure to prime the pump to avoid any air trapped within the pump.
The BM will prime the pump on its own but maybe it is not being effective in your case.
Cavitation will damage the impeller and it's a common problem in industry.
I would make sure that the pump is filled water at the start of the process by inserting the end of the hose into the inlet and letting water flow to displace any trapped air.

Also I'd try to fill the BM about 1/4 and turn the pump on and off a few times while tilting the BM to facilitate air bubbles to come out.

Another possible cause of cavitation is that the inlet may be clogged and its creating a vaccuum within the pump.
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Re: Rattling pump sound

Unread postby NewLine » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:00 pm

I also suspected cavitation, but then I don't understand why it would kick in when the pressure increases?
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Re: Rattling pump sound

Unread postby McMullan » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:51 am

I've experienced exactly the same thing once. It was after using a new mill for the first time. When I inspected the pump I noticed a mass of metallic particles stuck to the impeller. I assumed the particles unbalanced the impeller. A stuck grain particle is likely to do the same. Cavitation too. Follow perdido's advice. I do something similar as do others. Perhaps Speidel need to update the manual re priming of the pump(s)?
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Re: Rattling pump sound

Unread postby malzrohr » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:16 am

McMullan wrote:I've experienced exactly the same thing once. It was after using a new mill for the first time. When I inspected the pump I noticed a mass of metallic particles stuck to the impeller. I assumed the particles unbalanced the impeller. A stuck grain particle is likely to do the same. Cavitation too. Follow perdido's advice. I do something similar as do others. Perhaps Speidel need to update the manual re priming of the pump(s)?


metallic particles? I am curious how that could have happened. Do you suspect these particles were from the new mill? If the particles were from the mill then I would expect these particles to be found in the crushed malt. If that is true then how does this end up in the pump? The pump inlet is outside the malt pipe. So the particles might have entered the pump through the outlet. This can - theoretically - only happen at pump breaks. An alternative thought is that the particles came from the impeller itself caused by the imbalance of a running impeller.
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Re: Rattling pump sound

Unread postby McMullan » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:41 am

malzrohr wrote:
McMullan wrote:I've experienced exactly the same thing once. It was after using a new mill for the first time. When I inspected the pump I noticed a mass of metallic particles stuck to the impeller. I assumed the particles unbalanced the impeller. A stuck grain particle is likely to do the same. Cavitation too. Follow perdido's advice. I do something similar as do others. Perhaps Speidel need to update the manual re priming of the pump(s)?


metallic particles? I am curious how that could have happened. Do you suspect these particles were from the new mill? If the particles were from the mill then I would expect these particles to be found in the crushed malt. If that is true then how does this end up in the pump? The pump inlet is outside the malt pipe. So the particles might have entered the pump through the outlet. This can - theoretically - only happen at pump breaks. An alternative thought is that the particles came from the impeller itself caused by the imbalance of a running impeller.


Sorry, should have mentioned the particles were very fine, powder like. Pain to remove. Had to use a strong magnet in a plastic bag. Possibly carried with the cloudy wort at the start and, yes, possibly during pump breaks. I guess there were much more trapped in the grains. I suspect it was from the new mill. Impeller has no signs of being the source.
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Re: Rattling pump sound

Unread postby HopSong » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:52 am

The metallic particles were most likely from the mill rollers. When knurling the steel, there are almost always very fine, flat pieces of metal that detach from the steel, especially if the was improper coolant (or no coolant) used during the knurling process. I found this to be true with my Monster Mill 3 roller. Out of the box, I had to take a wire brush and go over each of the knurled rollers. Not a sign of great customer service, IMO, when the machine shop the builds the rollers doesn't take the time to fully clean their product. I doubt it would be much trouble with stainless rollers as there is no metallic taste transferred to the wort.. but, with regular steel.. not good.
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Re: Rattling pump sound

Unread postby McMullan » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:08 pm

Interesting, HbgBill, the mill I refer to is a MM-2 with SS rollers. I can't fault it. Great mill. I've been assured by Monster Brewing Hardware that my SS rollers are expected to be slightly magnetic and that I should contact them if the rollers start to rust. I tested them with steel using a strong magnet and noticed a huge difference. So fingers crossed.
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Re: Rattling pump sound

Unread postby HopSong » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:40 pm

Yah.. I wish I had splurged for the SS version.. I have the MM3. But, in the knurling process, the knurling "cutters" don't actually cut.. they displace metal.. kind of like if thou put your thumb and forefinger on each hand and put them together so as to form a 'diamond' between them.. then pressed them into.. let's say bread dough. You would raise a knurl when you removed your fingers. And dome of the dough might stick to your fingers. In the case of metal.. some little bit of metal sticks to the knurling tools.. rolled across the steel enough times to raise the knurl higher and higher.. you can see that it would be easy to form flakes that adhere to the mill rollers. Some of the flakes stick quite tightly and others are rather loose and can be wire brushed off.
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Re: Rattling pump sound

Unread postby zoigl » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:00 am

I did my first brew on my 50 litre BM in June 2010 and have now done 40 brews. I find the pumps occasionally rattle, but that the rattle goes away after a few cycles.
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