Erratic pump breaks then dead pump on older 20L.

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Erratic pump breaks then dead pump on older 20L.

Unread postby RR777 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:19 pm

Been using a 20L. brewmeisater with the older style control box for years,
recently in the first stage of the mash it will run 3 pump breaks in half an hour,
then the pump stops running although the (pump)indicator light stays on.

Temperatures are well below 80c. , and readings agree with external thermometers.

My main issue is identifying if the fault is with the pump or the control unit,
swapping out parts can get expensive quick.



I've read almost the entire site over the last few days and not seen a similar issue,
but sorry if this is a common one i missed.

Cheers.
RR777
 
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Re: Erratic pump breaks then dead pump on older 20L.

Unread postby johnrm » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:56 pm

Try reseating the pump connector at the back of the controller. While it's off check see if there is evidence of liquid/wort ingress.
Check pump rating, voltage and amperage, if 12v attach a suitable power supply, this will rule out pump.
You could test the output voltage output in manual mode.
If no output, it could be a relay in the controller.
Its most likely fixable.
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Re: Erratic pump breaks then dead pump on older 20L.

Unread postby mashy » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:54 am

This is very fixable & easily tested. I doubt its the controller.
The units built with the grey controller, are built like battleships not damp toilet paper.

I cannot recommend you follow this procedure, because you do need to pay attention, but here's how I would test it.

Before you start....
Stand the BM right way up & empty. Plugged in and 'ON'.
Remind yourself how to turn the pump on in manual mode. (press 'Manu' hold for 3 then use 'P')
Be careful with 'M' - DO NOT PRESS this with an empty machine!!
'M' turns the heating elements on - AND THEY MUST BE IMMERSED.

Braumeister Controls.jpg


To test.
Tip the machine upside down
Split the pump. By undoing the large brass collar.
Before you do anything else. Lift out the magnetic impeller.
Be VERY careful with the impeller. If you drop this it will not necessarily break, but it won't ever work properly again. Members have proved this in the past.
Make sure all the tiny holes in the impeller are clean - 100%.
Put the impeller somewhere safe. Away from the BM & not on the floor 8)
Now Press the 'P' button.

Does the 'P' light come on?
NO - The light signifies a controller issue - either the button or the relay.
YES - The 'P' light coming on signifies the controller is turning the pump on. But we need to Double check it.

Is the pin in the middle of the pump spinning?
YES - Reassemble. The pump needed a clean and probably the wires have re-seated
NO - Check the connection to the controller. It looks like a grey kettle plug.
If you cannot make the pump buzz or spin - You have found the problem – the pump. Double check it.

The double check
Remove the pump lead from the controller.
With simple multimeter check the voltage on the back of the controller. It should show Something in the range of 220/240 in the UK
YES - If the voltage is present you have confirmed the pump has failed.
NO - If the voltage reads 0 does the 'P' light come on
ON - controller issue - probably the relay. Remove controller and inspect.
OFF - controller issue - Remove controller & check the button, LED & whole board.

The most likely offender is the pump.
I seem to recall MINE is a Lowara E1-15/70B pump. Non specialist & available including shipping for below £100. **BUT MAKE SURE THIS IS THE CORRECT ONE FOR YOUR MACHINE **
ITT also make one.

Let me know how you get on !
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Re: Erratic pump breaks then dead pump on older 20L.

Unread postby IPA » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:11 am

I bought one of the first 20 litre automatic models. Before that they were manual. It was that long ago it came with a cloth grain filter. The pumps were a PITA . Even when I bought a 50 they were not much better. Thankfully Speidel have it sorted now. With the older pumps they would run but not pump. It's worth checking to see if that is your problem. Check by putting your hand on the pump if it is turning you will feel the vibration. Sometimes these faulty pumps also make a lot of noise but do not pump
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Re: Erratic pump breaks then dead pump on older 20L.

Unread postby RR777 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:15 pm

Thanks all,

I bought it C.2012 and my brewing partner took it over when I lost my taste for Beer,
I replaced the impeller early on, and I know it is kept clean (inc.holes),
(although He hasn't been priming the pump before use!)*

@mashy exactly what I was hoping for when I posted,
a slight noise from the pump of "Hunting" pointed at the fault being there,
but I didn't know what type of control/feedback (if any) was being sent from the box
and maybe causing this.
Will let you know, and ask more after running your diagnostic.

Thanks again.

*Not sure of the importance of this,but was in my routine.
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Re: Erratic pump breaks then dead pump on older 20L.

Unread postby IPA » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:56 am

RR777 wrote:Thanks all,

I bought it C.2012 and my brewing partner took it over when I lost my taste for Beer,
I replaced the impeller early on, and I know it is kept clean (inc.holes),
(although He hasn't been priming the pump before use!)*

@mashy exactly what I was hoping for when I posted,
a slight noise from the pump of "Hunting" pointed at the fault being there,
but I didn't know what type of control/feedback (if any) was being sent from the box
and maybe causing this.
Will let you know, and ask more after running your diagnostic.

Thanks again.

*Not sure of the importance of this,but was in my routine.


That " hunting" noise you describe is exactly what happens when the impeller loses magnetism. The new model pumps are much much better and well worth the £100. You will need a product such as Eurolock to install a new pump because it HAS to be fitted at an angle facing downwards to prevent airlocks.
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Re: Erratic pump breaks then dead pump on older 20L.

Unread postby mashy » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:23 am

IPA wrote: You will need a product such as Eurolock to install ....


Do you mean a thread sealant like Loctite ?
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Re: Erratic pump breaks then dead pump on older 20L.

Unread postby RR777 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:28 pm

Hello again,
@mashy - followed your excellent procedure and the pump is the culprit.

It's a Laing E1vario-15/700B
6080E5002
ECM motor 3-9W

Any help on sourcing a replacement economically would be greatly appreciated,
thank you for all replies so far.
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Model: 20 litres

Re: Erratic pump breaks then dead pump on older 20L.

Unread postby IPA » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:39 am

mashy wrote:
IPA wrote: You will need a product such as Eurolock to install ....


Do you mean a thread sealant like Loctite ?


Yes it is similar but it works in 60 seconds. I am certain that Speidel use it. Also it is food safe. Google it.. it hardens when air is excluded.
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Re: Erratic pump breaks then dead pump on older 20L.

Unread postby IPA » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:43 am

Remember when replacing this pump you might need some adapters. Speidel suply these if you buy a pump from them.
And you will need Eurolock in order to instal the pump at the correct angle. I will post a link for it later today
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Re: Erratic pump breaks then dead pump on older 20L.

Unread postby mashy » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:41 am

IPA wrote:Remember when replacing this pump you might need some adapters. Speidel suply these if you buy a pump from them.
And you will need Eurolock in order to instal the pump at the correct angle. I will post a link for it later today


Good shout. Try them first.

You might also try searching on here... There is a lot of threads on the subject.
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Re: Erratic pump breaks then dead pump on older 20L.

Unread postby IPA » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:21 pm

Here is the link for Eurolock.
https://www.toutpourlabiere.com/colle-f ... -1447.html

It is an amazing product. No need to tighten the thread. It locks and seals in any position. No workshop should be without it.
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Re: Erratic pump breaks then dead pump on older 20L.

Unread postby mashy » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:50 am

Thanks for the link.
Sounds like the liquid ptfe stuff from delta adhesives... Really good. Like you say. No workshop should be without it.
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Re: Erratic pump breaks then dead pump on older 20L.

Unread postby Cap'n Greybeard » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:11 pm

mashy wrote:This is very fixable & easily tested. I doubt its the controller.
The units built with the grey controller, are built like battleships not damp toilet paper.

I cannot recommend you follow this procedure, because you do need to pay attention, but here's how I would test it.


Mashy,

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but I have a related controller box issue and wanted to get your input. I have a older 'gray box' controller 20L that has served me quite well since 2012. In 2015 I was tempted by the allure of the flashy new interface on the control unit but figured I'd just wait. It appears that was a good move given the multitude of issues with screen fogging, and Speidel's inability to fix it. Don't fix what ain't broke.

Well, yesterday I was brewing and got down to the last ten minutes of the boil waiting to add the last :05 minute hop addition. The timer was at :09 remaining. I waited. And waited. And finally looked at my watch. And waited some more. The time on the control unit never went past :09. I chucked in the last of the hops and went inside to set a timer. After three minutes I headed outside to turn off the unit manually. The timer had restarted and had ticked down to :06 time remaining. So I'm not sure what caused it to quit and later resume counting. I had literally watched it stop at the :09 mark for at least 3-4 minutes. All other functions of the control box appeared normal.

The one thing worthy of mention is that the outside air temp was mid 40s F/ 7C, and the maximum boil temp achieved was 99C. I had placed the immersion chiller in the boil to sanitize at the :15 minute remaining mark and the boil temp had slid to 96C and the Heat light came on. I know the pump does not operate above mid 80s C in both manual and automatic (does come back on below that temp) but I don't know of any such break in the timer function if temp drops below the demanded temp. There is nothing to be found in the user manual or online at Speidel. The only thing even remotely close is when the timer doesn't start until the step temperature is reached, or in the case of the boil if selected temperature for boil isn't reached within a set time (5 mins?) but does reach at least 99C at which point timing starts. Could the drop in temperature below 99C have caused the timer to have 'paused' like a "pump break"? I can find no documentation to support that notion.

I hate the thought ($$$$) of replacing the control unit. Firstly, I can't find any 'old gray box' replacements anywhere. Secondly, nobody seems to sell them or the newer 2015 unit other than Speidel. Lastly, all the gripes I've seen on this forum about the 2015 box (31 pages worth) suggest I'd be replacing one broken unit with another. Please tell me there's an easy fix. Or better yet, tell me that the timer interruption is a 'normal' thing and that my present unit is O.K.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

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Re: Erratic pump breaks then dead pump on older 20L.

Unread postby aziztan » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:21 am

sounds like the controller timed out as it wasn't hitting the 100c boil temp because of 2 things. 1. The wort chiller has knocked a few degrees off and 2. the freezing 7c cold outside where it's operating.

Ive experienced this one time when I had sparge too heavily with Cold water and dropping the overall temp while the BM trying to bring it to boil.

If the controller doesn't recognise a temp increase over a period of time, it will deactivate the program.

Hopefully this was the case for you.

Cheers
Aziz

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