20 to 200ltr BM Recipe Scaling

Because the 200 L and 500 L units are a different league, we'll grant them their own sub-forum.

20 to 200ltr BM Recipe Scaling

Unread postby manyhandsbrew » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:52 pm

Hi All!

Just got a 200 ltr after lots of brewing on the 20. First batch we've scaled up and brewed is tasting pretty different to the trials. It's a NEIPA, but tasting much less fruity and more bitter than the trial. Short of straight forward x10 for grain bill and hop additions, is there something else I should be factoring in? I've read that hop utilisation can be an issue when scaling up, but is this the case even moving from 20 to 200ltr!? Any advice much appreciated.
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Re: 20 to 200ltr BM Recipe Scaling

Unread postby dinnerstick » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:16 pm

can you describe the hop additions around the end of boil, and your cooling methods and times on the two systems?
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Re: 20 to 200ltr BM Recipe Scaling

Unread postby mashy » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:13 am

I think 20 > 200 will need more than simple linear scaling. First thoughts are. Elevated heating/cooling times affecting extraction ? Also consider shape/time of fermentation?
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Re: 20 to 200ltr BM Recipe Scaling

Unread postby manyhandsbrew » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:41 am

Hi Both, I don't think there is a huge difference in cooling times as we're using a h/x on the 200ltr. From boil to 70c with the jacket/whirlpool, then down to 20c via the h/x in single pass to the fermenter (probably around 20/30 mins). On the 20ltr we were waiting on the immersion chiller, but probably around the same time. Around end of boil we're adding hops at 10 mins (280g Citra), 5 mins (280g Azacca) and 0 mins (280g Citra). Fermentation is quite different as we had no temp control on the 20ltr fermenters, so they're at the mercy of ambient temp but we have full jacketing and glycol chiller on the larger fermenters (US-05 yeast kept at 19 degrees c). We haven't done much experimenting with fermentation temp - is a single degree difference going to be dramatic difference in results?
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Re: 20 to 200ltr BM Recipe Scaling

Unread postby mashy » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:22 am

Temperature does indeed make a difference to yeast and believe it or not the shape of the FV.
Stress free yeast is best, so not dropping temp (until complete) Steady temps with no daily fluctuations. No overheating.
Yeast dosage and pumping (& aeration) make a difference too.
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Re: 20 to 200ltr BM Recipe Scaling

Unread postby manyhandsbrew » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:53 pm

Thanks Mashy, all things to try and get under control. If only it could be simple! We were pitching dry yeast at around 1 g/ltr which is more than we did for the 20ltr (homebrew sachets tend to be around 11grm for 20ltr batch sizes), so this might be something to change. I'm half thinking some of the 'fruitiness' i'm chasing is esters from the warmer ferment on the smaller batches - so maybe not something i should be striving for after all!
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Re: 20 to 200ltr BM Recipe Scaling

Unread postby dinnerstick » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:22 am

'less fruity and more bitter than the trial'
if it's really more bitter (as opposed to higher perception of bitterness, influenced by other factors such as residual sweetness), then you have to look at hop utilisation or cooling time. if the wort strength is the same or pretty similar and boil is good then you can pretty much discount hop utilisation as the difference. cooling time often makes an enormous difference on IBUs between small and large systems. but you say you pre-cool the wort to 70 before knocking out through your HX, which will certainly stop isomerization. but how long does it take you to get from boil to 85, which is generally considered the practical 'safe temp' for stopping alpha acid isomerization? here, 5 minutes difference can make a big difference with a lot of late/whirlpool hops. i would have a look at this as the most likely difference.
what i would do (and have done on my own commercial brewhouse) (not a speidel system) is get to know the system and work with it, rather than try to get it to perform the same way as the homebrew kit. this might mean first brewing a few batches and trying to get an idea of how much bitterness you are getting from these late additions (it's notoriously difficult to get a good estimate from recipe software). Then maybe shift as much of the hopping to the last possible minute. Personally for my highest hopped beers I have largely done away with 15/10 minute additions and shifted to almost completely whirlpool additions. (On my system I actively whirlpool 5 minutes, rest 20m, and knockout through the HX takes 25m)
What I have also done, but is a horrible pain on my system due to pellet hops clogging the filter and/or HX, but might work on yours, is pre-cool to 85 before adding whirlpool additions. If you can do this on the cooling jacket, then you can dial in your bitterness with boil hops (accurately predicted by recipe software), cool and all all your late hops at a safe temperature.
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Re: 20 to 200ltr BM Recipe Scaling

Unread postby manyhandsbrew » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:50 am

Good advice and much appreciated, thanks Dinnerstick!
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