Mash Hopping

Any discussion about non-specific Braumeister brewing techniques can be discussed here. E.g. "How to make a starter?", "What's the best way to store my grains?", "Which pH meter do you recommend?", ...

Mash Hopping

Unread postby Tipsy » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:44 pm

On another forum it was the consensus that mash hopping was a waste of hops.

I'm a no chiller due to my water supply and I do believe my beers aren't as hoppy as chilled beers.
I've always had success with FWH on my 3V system and I wonder if mash hopping would suit the BM with the way it recirculates.
Would getting up to mash out temps be enough to extract enough bitterness?
Tipsy
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:57 am
Location: Victoria, Australia

Re: Mash Hopping

Unread postby Elderberry » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:54 am

Tipsy wrote:On another forum it was the consensus that mash hopping was a waste of hops.

I'm a no chiller due to my water supply and I do believe my beers aren't as hoppy as chilled beers.
I've always had success with FWH on my 3V system and I wonder if mash hopping would suit the BM with the way it recirculates.
Would getting up to mash out temps be enough to extract enough bitterness?


What do you mean by "hoppy"? Do you want more hops flavor or more bitterness? The answer to either might be surprisingly simple: Add more hops. If you want more flavor and aroma, add more hops at flame-out. Of course, the variety you choose will have an impact.

For bitterness, you pretty much need to boil.
Elderberry
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:08 am
Location: Belgium
Model: 20 litres

Re: Mash Hopping

Unread postby Tipsy » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:28 am

Back when I chilled I always had a 20min hop addition which gave me plenty of flavour.
I also tried first wort hops which I also believe gives a lot of flavour as well a bitterness. (I know a lot of brewers don't agree with this)

Ever since going to no-chill I've tried to get the flavour from a 20 minute addition by delaying it. e.g. throwing it in the cube or in at flame out.
This might be debatable but I think those hops sitting in a hot cube for hours don't give me anything like a 20 minute addition.

So what I was thinking was to try FWHopping again and then it got me thinking 'why not mash hop?'.
With the BM I could put the hops in with the grain and have wort recirculate through them.
The only downside I can see is it would only get up to 78c before they get removed.

I guess the question is, is this a stupid idea?
Would the Alpha acids leach into the wort at 78c therefore be there for the boil?
Tipsy
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:57 am
Location: Victoria, Australia

Re: Mash Hopping

Unread postby niels » Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:30 pm

Tipsy wrote:I guess the question is, is this a stupid idea?
Would the Alpha acids leach into the wort at 78c therefore be there for the boil?

I'm not convinced a lot of hop flavour will be left after the boil as most of it will be driven of during the boil.

Maybe dry hopping might be an option to add back some fresh hop flavours to your beer?

- Niels
User avatar
niels
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1058
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:08 pm
Location: Belgium
Model: 50 litres

Re: Mash Hopping

Unread postby Tipsy » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:54 pm

niels wrote:I'm not convinced a lot of hop flavour will be left after the boil as most of it will be driven of during the boil.


Yes a lot of brewers don't believe in a flavour benefit from FWH. I've made beers where the only hop addition was first wort hops and for me the flavour was definitely better than just a 60 minute addition alone

niels wrote:Maybe dry hopping might be an option to add back some fresh hop flavours to your beer?


I do like dry hopping a lot of beers, but to me dry hopping has a different taste to late hop additions.

I think I might just suck it up and give it a try :cheers: what could possibly go wrong besides an overly sweet beer. :lol:
Tipsy
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:57 am
Location: Victoria, Australia

Re: Mash Hopping

Unread postby dinnerstick » Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:24 am

if i'm not mistaken the "idea" behind mash hopping is that something magical happens to the hop aromatics when steeped at the low temps of a mash, they react with something in the malt and become less volatile, so that they stick around through the boil. i find this so vague as to be almost meaningless, yet some people are sure that it works for them. then again some people are sure that all of their life problems are attributable directly to gluten (celiacs, fair enough!), and can not be convinced otherwise. i'm not saying mash hopping does or doesn't work, i'm highly skeptical but i love to be proven wrong; i will happily flip sides if presented with some hard evidence in the form of a good experiment that shows a difference. i don't need an explanation, but need more than "homebrewer jimmy says it makes his beer better". but the experiment is tricky to do, what is the direct comparison? mash hopping with x g/L, compared to the same amount as a late hop? doesn't really work, as you are not really comparing like with like; each may contribute IBUs and the amount of aromatics may differ by huge factors. i suppose what you'd want to see is a lab report and sensory evaluation from a beer made with only mash hops, compared to one made with only late hops, so you could specifically evaluate the contribution from that hop addition? but who's going to make two crappy beers just for that test.... not me!
there was a basic brewing radio episode (8 may 2014) with some experimenting, but i feel that to some extent it falls into the category of not comparing like with like, but it's definitely worth a listen if you are really interested in the specific contributions from different hopping techniques.
as for mash hopping in the BM, it's no problem; i have done it once as i think the recipe for janet's brown has mash hops, and i followed it to the tee. they just sit in the mash and don't affect anything.
User avatar
dinnerstick
 
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:51 am
Location: Utrecht NL
Model: 20 litres

Re: Mash Hopping

Unread postby Tipsy » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:34 am

dinnerstick wrote:i suppose what you'd want to see is a lab report and sensory evaluation from a beer made with only mash hops, compared to one made with only late hops, so you could specifically evaluate the contribution from that hop addition? but who's going to make two crappy beers just for that test.... not me!


I was thinking of doing a side by side test with 100% pils malt both with a single bittering addition of Saaz hops.

One would be a 60 minute addition so should be a drinkable Summer quencher beer.
The other the addition would be to the mash to see if any aromatics hang around.
The only problem I can foresee is the bittering hop compounds may not come out into the wort during the mash therefore leaving me with a very low or no IBUs beer.

I have no problem with creating a no IBU beer because I can then run it through the still for a single malt whiskey.

I suppose my question should really be, can you extract bitterness from hops from steeping at 78c?

BTW I love gluten. :lol: :cheers:
Tipsy
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:57 am
Location: Victoria, Australia

Re: Mash Hopping

Unread postby dinnerstick » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:46 am

assuming you can't get someone in a lab to run IBU measurements for you (actually relatively easy with standard biochem type equipment if you have the right solvent) you could always try something small (1-2 liter batches even) on the stovetop:
make some wort with extract and divide between two identical pots
add hops to the first
heat both to 78 (or simulate a whole mash schedule)
completely remove hops by straining and maybe coffee filter?
boil both, adding 60 minute addition to the second
cool in a cold water bath
add identical amounts of yeast, ferment in identical bottles, bottle condition a few, and do some blind triangle tests

bob then might have no other option than to become your uncle

or you can wham up a big batch of zero/low IBU beer and distill it, that sounds quite reasonable as well. highly off topic, what happens if you distill something hoppy, i assume hop aromatics can come through but alpha acids? i am a total distilling noob except when i was 16 and tried to distill potato vodka in my friend's parent's kitchen one late night (baker's yeast + raw shredded potatoes, went completely rotten, bottom of the 5L flask cracked, hot vomit-inducing rotten potato soup all over absolutely everything, but we did later manage to run the bottoms of 20 odd (very odd in some cases) butt ends of assorted fly-riddled booze bottles from a long out-of-business bar through the mini-still and yield a highly undesirable but hugely potent clear elixir that took the hair off your tongue and made it grow on your back)
User avatar
dinnerstick
 
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:51 am
Location: Utrecht NL
Model: 20 litres

Re: Mash Hopping

Unread postby royco » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:21 pm

"clear elixir that took the hair off your tongue and made it grow on your back"

Sheeyitt, I must have had some of that without knowing. Or maybe that shampoo that was guaranteed to grow hair on a golf ball. My mate said maybe it only works on a golf ball.
It sure grew a forest on my back.
Last edited by royco on Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
royco
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:48 am
Location: Durban, South Africa
Model: 50 litres

Re: Mash Hopping

Unread postby royco » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:27 pm

Tipsy wrote:
BTW I love gluten. :lol: :cheers:


I read recently that no underprivileged people ever developed gluten intolerance. I hope that old age is not turning me into a cynic?
royco
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:48 am
Location: Durban, South Africa
Model: 50 litres


Return to General Brewing Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests