The Tasty Method for fermenting Lager

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The Tasty Method for fermenting Lager

Unread postby royco » Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:58 pm

Anyone tried this? I read about it on an Australian forum and have just tried it on my first lager with good results. It goes something like this:

Pitch and lower to 10° for 1 week.
Raise 1° for 3 days and another 1°per 3 days until 16°.
Keep at 16° until FG reached.
Raise to 20° for 3 days, then crash to 0.5° and transfer to secondary.
After a week keg and carb.

Theory is, raising the temperature slowly over 2 weeks sorts all the dactyl problems and you can get good lager in 6 weeks as opposed to 3 months!

Royco.
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Re: The Tasty Method for fermenting Lager

Unread postby HopSong » Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:47 pm

IF, I say IF, I ever do a lager I will have to remember this. I just buy lager and make ales :)
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Re: The Tasty Method for fermenting Lager

Unread postby Luis Coentrao » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:52 pm

until now, only have done lagerbier.
never tried that method.
usually pitch 4C, ferment 6-7C, diacetyl rest 12C.14-21days. transfer under CO2 to keg. Lager -2 to 0C. 1 month (try and feel...) :beer:
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Re: The Tasty Method for fermenting Lager

Unread postby Nesto » Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:39 am

I've done a couple lagers. Here's what I do. Pitch at 7C. Allow to rise so that you ferment at 10C until gravity is 3 to 5 points above expected terminal gravity. Then raise to 18-20C for 2 day diacetyl rest. Make sure I've reached terminal gravity then cold crash (slowly - see advice from Yeast book) under a bed of CO2 to below 4C. Has worked great for me so far. Check the fermentation chapter of the Yeast book - they give a couple other protocols for lagers.
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Re: The Tasty Method for fermenting Lager

Unread postby royco » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:48 am

HbgBill wrote:IF, I say IF, I ever do a lager I will have to remember this. I just buy lager and make ales :)


I agree Bill, but I just had to try a lager, and tho' I says it wot should not ought, it is good, and has more flavour than the mass-produced commercial lagers.

Nesto, I may try another lager and will use your method. The principle is similar but the process is much simpler.
FWIW, here is the rationale behind the Tasty Method:

THE METHOD:

McDole starts with plenty of healthy yeast slurry, preferring WLP833 - German Bock Yeast (the Ayinger strain). He pitches at 55F and keeps a close eye on the progress of the ferment.

After the gravity drops 50% of the way to terminal gravity, he raises the temperature to 58F.

After the gravity drops 75% of the way to terminal gravity, he raises the temperature to 62F.

After the gravity drops 90% of the way to terminal gravity, he raises the temperature to 66F and holds until fermentation is complete.

Though it goes against the traditional method of lager fermentation, this procedure parallels a normal, healthy ale fermentation. After the initial growth phase, a slow. steady rise in temperature towards the end of fermentation helps yeast attenuate properly and clean up fermentation byproducts. Since the vast majority of esters we want to avoid in crisp, clean lagers are produced during the initial growth phase, it makes sense to reel in the temperature initially, allowing the yeast an increasingly warmer environment to complete fermentation.
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Re: The Tasty Method for fermenting Lager

Unread postby Luis Coentrao » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:49 pm

Rocyo,
Let me share with you some of my thoughts about brewing lagerbier.

Lagerbier require a high pitch rate (>1.5million/ml/plato) for one big reason: it wants at the same time yeast to ferment beer but... without an exponational growth greater than 3 generations. Why? It wants alchool and CO2 but no off-flavors derived from healthy fermentation/replication. That's the reason why it is used high cell conts and low temp. Yeast must spend it's time fermenting beer and not loosing time replicating themselves and producing byproducts.

For the majority of craftbrewers I think there are no fast-tracks for brewing great lagers. As Bill said, if we want blond, crystal, carbonated and fresh alchoolic beverages... we buy industrial lagers. Folks from industry get lagers quite fast; they ferment under pressure at relatively high temp. Use chromatography and spectophotometry to be sure that volatile compounds, diacetyl and fermentable sugars are OK to bottle beer. Pressurized fermentation reduce the production of fusel alchools and esters (but not diacetyl), therefore hgher temp. are used to fasten fermentation and clear diacetyl. I never tried (yet) but we, homebrewers, can mimic that method using a keg as primary fermentor with a spundung valve.

IMO, for us, atmospheric homebrewers, there is only one way to get decent lagers: be patient, and generous.
For 20L batch, pitch 450-600 billions lager yeast cells, low pitch temp., low kraeusen temp. until 1.5 Plato from the end. Afterwards, 2 options: classic lagering versus modern diacetyl rest at a temp. 6C degrees (maximum) from kraeusen temp. Wait, taste and feel (diacetyl, yes or not). Follow to lagering at -2 to 0C in a secondary fermentor (keg, for example).
Carbonate with what you are used to.

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Re: The Tasty Method for fermenting Lager

Unread postby Victor Coelho » Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:40 am

Luis Coentrao wrote:Rocyo,
Let me share with you some of my thoughts about brewing lagerbier.

Lagerbier require a high pitch rate (>1.5million/ml/plato) for one big reason: it wants at the same time yeast to ferment beer but... without an exponational growth greater than 3 generations. Why? It wants alchool and CO2 but no off-flavors derived from healthy fermentation/replication. That's the reason why it is used high cell conts and low temp. Yeast must spend it's time fermenting beer and not loosing time replicating themselves and producing byproducts.

For the majority of craftbrewers I think there are no fast-tracks for brewing great lagers. As Bill said, if we want blond, crystal, carbonated and fresh alchoolic beverages... we buy industrial lagers. Folks from industry get lagers quite fast; they ferment under pressure at relatively high temp. Use chromatography and spectophotometry to be sure that volatile compounds, diacetyl and fermentable sugars are OK to bottle beer. Pressurized fermentation reduce the production of fusel alchools and esters (but not diacetyl), therefore hgher temp. are used to fasten fermentation and clear diacetyl. I never tried (yet) but we, homebrewers, can mimic that method using a keg as primary fermentor with a spundung valve.

IMO, for us, atmospheric homebrewers, there is only one way to get decent lagers: be patient, and generous.
For 20L batch, pitch 450-600 billions lager yeast cells, low pitch temp., low kraeusen temp. until 1.5 Plato from the end. Afterwards, 2 options: classic lagering versus modern diacetyl rest at a temp. 6C degrees (maximum) from kraeusen temp. Wait, taste and feel (diacetyl, yes or not). Follow to lagering at -2 to 0C in a secondary fermentor (keg, for example).
Carbonate with what you are used to.

:cheers:


I use Tasty's method not only for lagers but ale as well.

As Bill said, if we want blond, crystal, carbonated and fresh alchoolic beverages... we buy industrial lagers.


Yes, if i'm looking for blond, crystal, carbonated, fresh alchoolic and tasteless.....i buy industrial lager.

But as i'm looking for a good and tasty lager, crystal, blonde.....whatever......i brew my own.

Doesn't make much sense to me someone brewing ales and buying lagers....unless has no temp control and if thats the case....should buy ales as welll.
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Comments from the Brewmaster, SAB Miller

Unread postby royco » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:56 pm

Victor, Luis, thank you for your valuable input. The newly-retired brewmaster from SAB (Miller) lives down the road from us and he popped around for drinks last night. He is now a bit more forthcoming with info!
It turns out their lagering method is almost exactly like Tasty's method, with some modifications:
They have a template giving the exact gravity graph:
Pitch at 7°C and allow to raise to 10°
As the SG falls below the template, raise to 12°C
ditto: raise to 14°C
ditto raise to 16°C
At terminal G crash to minus 2°
They brew at very high gravity to save space in fermenters. The high FG beer is then blended with de-oxygenated, carbonated water using in-line ABV measuring to get within 0.01% ABV.
I always thought commercial lager tasted like beer diluted with Schweppes soda water :wink:
Bitterness is also controlled by diluting with a batch of higher or lower IBU to nail it.

Too much science an effort for me. Have to agree with Luis: be patient, and generous

Royco
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Re: The Tasty Method for fermenting Lager

Unread postby Luis Coentrao » Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:28 pm

Hi Royco,

The last batch I've made in October it was something between Bohemian Pilsner and Dortmunder (my municipal Water has the same profile as Dusseldorf). I've used the method I told you: High pitch rate (repitch yeast, W34/70), pitch Temp 4C, fermentation Temp 6.5C (10 days). At 75% attenuation (a litle bit late indeed) Diacetyl Rest at 12.5C for 5 days. Rack to Keg. Gradually decreased Temp to 0C. Forced carbonation 8PSI for 10 days. Total time 1 month.
Result: very Low Diacetyl (at background), really nice gold lagger.

IMG_0816.JPG
Pils


After reading your post, and re-reading Braukaiser and Brulosophy I decided to give a chance to a "modern" method with a 15ºPlato Marzen: high pitch rate (repitch w34/70), pitch temp 6C, fermentation temp 8C until 50% attenuation (5th day), increase temp 2C/day until 14C (8th day, 72.5 % attenuation), diacetyl rest 16C for 3 days (day 11, 74% attenuation ). Today, gonna decrease temp 2C/day until 5C (day 16). Rack to Keg, keep 5C for 1 more week, cold crash at -1 and carbonate at 8PSI. Total time (estimated): 1 month.

ANXIOUS to taste the result

:beer:
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Re: The Tasty Method for fermenting Lager

Unread postby royco » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:35 pm

Hi Luis,

Thanks for the interesting feedback. I think I introduced a slight off taste by going to 20°C for the last few days, but overall not bad. What you propose is vaguely in line with what the maestro from SAB-Miller told me
(do you know SAB?). Am busy fermenting a Wit right now but want to give lager another go. Please let me know how it turns out.

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Re: The Tasty Method for fermenting Lager

Unread postby Fritzkellerbrau » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:16 pm

Hi all

Brewed a Märzen on Sunday. Cooled wort and first yeast to 7C and pitched on Monday. Pitched 2nd lot on Monday evening and then set temperature to 10C. [Reason for the two pitches was that I had to do a couple of yeast starters as my WLP820 had a best by date Jan 2014. Probably still underpitched for the 20l brew]. As of this evening no visible fermentation activity yet. Plan to keep at 10C for at least a week and slowly raise, depending on attenuation to 16C diacetyl rest. Fingers crossed.
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Re: The Tasty Method for fermenting Lager

Unread postby Fritzkellerbrau » Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:01 pm

An update 2 weeks into fermentation:

After no visible activity (airlock no pressure) two days into fermentation I increased the temperature to around 12.5C (WLP website recommend temparature for above yeast at 11C to 14C). Since then steady activity. About 2 or so "burbs" per minute. Checked the SG tonight - currently at 1.031 (OG was 1.05). Quite a bit of kruasen on top and good yeast sediment layer at the bottom. Taste also quite good (so far at least :D ).

Will give it another week or so before checking SG for diacetyl rest.

I guess that patience is another definition of lagering :D .
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Re: The Tasty Method for fermenting Lager

Unread postby royco » Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:02 pm

Dirk, it may have kicked in without increasing the temp. In my limited experience lagers can take 2~3 days to get going. Let us know how it turns out.
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Re: The Tasty Method for fermenting Lager

Unread postby Luis Coentrao » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:54 am

Hi Royco,

Here it is the Marzen, tastes very malty, the finish no so crisp as I wanted.
Flaws: chill haze, diacetyl is perceptible when you leave it in the glass for some time

IMG_0827.JPG
Marzen


Fermentation schedule was not exactly as Brulosophy's or Tasty's:
- Pitch at 6C, Lag at 7C, Low K and High K at 8C
- Step up temperature when reached 55% apparent attenuation / 75% fermentation, until 16C
- Diacetyl rest
- Step down temperature gradually

Yeast: w34/70 (third repitch, 0.5L slurry)

Marzen.pdf
Fermentation
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Re: The Tasty Method for fermenting Lager

Unread postby Jeff K » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:53 pm

If it helps any, I just tend to hold pilsners at 10c for 3 weeks or so, raise for the D-Rest for a couple of days then move to corny and drop to 2c under CO2 for 2 months and it's crispy clear and tasty.
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