To trub or not to trub?

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To trub or not to trub?

Unread postby leosardinha » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:06 pm

Dicko wrote:
niels wrote:Nice! This makes me think about a photo that has been posted on the Flemish home brewers forum a few times:

This is the wort that comes out of his kettle after cooling and goes into his fermentor.

Of course, this is not the same as getting your beer clear after fermentation. But a cold(er) lagering and time goes a very long way!

- Niels


Niels, that is a great picture.
When I started on my journey to achieve a clear beer my first step was to replace my plate chiller with an immersion unit so I could avoid trub carry over into the fermenter.
I boil the wort with my dome on for 80 minutes and add Brewbrite at between 10 and 5 minutes.
I then chill as rapidly and as cold as possible using tap water initially and then an ice slurry pumped through the chiller.
I then leave the wort in the kettle for 1 hour to settle.
I then decant around 200 mls of wort and discard as this first bit will contain trub and hop debris.
I then drain the kettle into the fermenter with the tap about half way open so as not to drag any trub into the fermenter. As the kettle is nearly empty I lift the back edge onto a small piece of wood to allow all of the clear wort to flow out but at the same time being EXTREMELY careful not to carry any trub with it.
My loss to trub is commonly 4 litres.
I found an incredible improvement in my beers after adopting this procedure as I strongly believe it is trub from the kettle that causes off flavours and cloudy beers that once present can not be removed at least at the home brew level.
I have wort samples that continually look as clear as the pic above.
Another thing that I have noticed is that the trub after fermentation is extremely clean and from this it is very easy to salvage some yeast for another brew.

Some may argue that this is going overboard and I am the first to agree if I was making an IPA or an APA, Porter or Stout but to get a light coloured lager to be clean bright and clear both visually and with the taste can be a real challenge at the home brew level.

:cheers:


After I read this: http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-gr ... ts-are-in/

I really gave up on being paranoic with trub.

NOTE: I've split this discussion from the Beer Clarity Corona Clone experiment topic. - Niels
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Re: To trub or not to trub?

Unread postby Dicko » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:24 pm

leosardinha wrote:
Dicko wrote:
niels wrote:Nice! This makes me think about a photo that has been posted on the Flemish home brewers forum a few times:

Grotefoto-87IFCRGD.jpg

This is the wort that comes out of his kettle after cooling and goes into his fermentor.

Of course, this is not the same as getting your beer clear after fermentation. But a cold(er) lagering and time goes a very long way!

- Niels


Niels, that is a great picture.
When I started on my journey to achieve a clear beer my first step was to replace my plate chiller with an immersion unit so I could avoid trub carry over into the fermenter.
I boil the wort with my dome on for 80 minutes and add Brewbrite at between 10 and 5 minutes.
I then chill as rapidly and as cold as possible using tap water initially and then an ice slurry pumped through the chiller.
I then leave the wort in the kettle for 1 hour to settle.
I then decant around 200 mls of wort and discard as this first bit will contain trub and hop debris.
I then drain the kettle into the fermenter with the tap about half way open so as not to drag any trub into the fermenter. As the kettle is nearly empty I lift the back edge onto a small piece of wood to allow all of the clear wort to flow out but at the same time being EXTREMELY careful not to carry any trub with it.
My loss to trub is commonly 4 litres.
I found an incredible improvement in my beers after adopting this procedure as I strongly believe it is trub from the kettle that causes off flavours and cloudy beers that once present can not be removed at least at the home brew level.
I have wort samples that continually look as clear as the pic above.
Another thing that I have noticed is that the trub after fermentation is extremely clean and from this it is very easy to salvage some yeast for another brew.

Some may argue that this is going overboard and I am the first to agree if I was making an IPA or an APA, Porter or Stout but to get a light coloured lager to be clean bright and clear both visually and with the taste can be a real challenge at the home brew level.

:cheers:


After I read this: http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-gr ... ts-are-in/

I really gave up on being paranoic with trub.


Snipped from the end of the article:

"As with most things in this great hobby, what one brewer considers normal or even required practice may be viewed by another brewer as being totally unnecessary. Obviously, the experimental condition in this exBEERiment was purposefully overblown, as I was most interested in the impact massive amounts of trub would have compared to minimal amounts. I think this exBEERiment not only demonstrates that worrying about this issue is hugely unwarranted and that great beer can be produced regardless of the amount of trub that makes it into the fermentor, but that there is potentially some benefit to fermenting with a fair amount of break material."

And I wrote above:

"Some may argue that this is going overboard and I am the first to agree if I was making an IPA or an APA, Porter or Stout but to get a light coloured lager to be clean bright and clear both visually and with the taste can be a real challenge at the home brew level."

That was a very interesting experiment and I tend to agree that this effort may not be warranted with a Pale Ale.
My observations from attempting to perfect LAGER brewing is that over time I have always had a very slight "TASTE" which I could never really put my finger on.
I was also never happy with the clarity of the beer although I may say that on my 3v the wort had a more vigorous boil and did come clear most of the time. My dome has fixed that.

I would like to see the same experiment with a true lager fermented at true lager temperatures and with a hop bitterness level no higher than 22 ibu and not a fruity type hop but more of the earthy / floral type as I do believe, if only from my personal observations that fruity type hops mask a "multitude of sins" in a beer.
The best trial would be to use a "smash" recipe of quality pilsener malt and say for example German Saaz
Hops.
My use of capital letters is not meaning I am shouting but as I am on an IPad I don't have the ability to highlite text in any other way so please don't take me the wrong way.

I admire that guys effort in your link above as he has gone the full mile to demonstrate his experiment.
I probably should add here that in making and processing the above beer I also transferred wort under C02 at every point.

:cheers:
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Re: To trub or not to trub?

Unread postby niels » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:03 am

Well Dicko, this sounds like an idea for a forum experiment ;)

- Niels
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Re: To trub or not to trub?

Unread postby leosardinha » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:28 am

Dicko,

Nothing wrong with your way of thinking.

I just found the link I sent a really interesting experiment and as the topic was similar I decided to include here for a different point of view.

I think brewing is peculiar, there are a lot of different approachs you can have on it.

But in the end you need to choose the one that makes you more confortable and happy with the outcomes.

For me, in my particular opinion, after a long brewday shaving some time&work off because of trub handling seemed a good idea. Most of the times my girlfriend is already on my back wanting to go out for lunch haha

Even more when I perceived that it seems to impact minimally, even if I dump the whole wort with trub in the FV.

I take some care but not a lot, basically what I do is:

1) chill with IC with pumps on to optimize chilling temps
2) after chill I do a quick Whirlpool with brewing paddle.
3) I wait about 10-15 minutes for the trub to settle and start the draining to the FV.
4) In the end I tip the BM to get as much of the wort as I can, I even take some bits of trub, I just stop when the green slurry comes.
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Re: To trub or not to trub?

Unread postby Dicko » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:52 pm

niels wrote:Well Dicko, this sounds like an idea for a forum experiment ;)

- Niels


Hi Niels,

At the moment I have a Continental Pils on the the style of a Grolsch made in exactly the same way.
When I get home at the end of the week I will cube it and chill it for a week at -2 and treat it in exactly the same way as I did the recipe above.
I hope it comes out the same and if it does I will be extremely pleased.
The results will be forthcoming.

On a different note Niels, maybe this beer clarity subject could be started as a separate topic rather than have it in the recipes thread. :D
Done ;) - Niels

:cheers:
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Re: To trub or not to trub?

Unread postby Dicko » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:59 pm

leosardinha wrote:Dicko,

Nothing wrong with your way of thinking.

I just found the link I sent a really interesting experiment and as the topic was similar I decided to include here for a different point of view.

I think brewing is peculiar, there are a lot of different approachs you can have on it.

But in the end you need to choose the one that makes you more confortable and happy with the outcomes.

For me, in my particular opinion, after a long brewday shaving some time&work off because of trub handling seemed a good idea. Most of the times my girlfriend is already on my back wanting to go out for lunch haha

Even more when I perceived that it seems to impact minimally, even if I dump the whole wort with trub in the FV.

I take some care but not a lot, basically what I do is:

1) chill with IC with pumps on to optimize chilling temps
2) after chill I do a quick Whirlpool with brewing paddle.
3) I wait about 10-15 minutes for the trub to settle and start the draining to the FV.
4) In the end I tip the BM to get as much of the wort as I can, I even take some bits of trub, I just stop when the green slurry comes.


Totally agree leosardinha, time is quite often a worry when brewing as family commitments do take priority.
I have experimented with lagers for many years and since getting the BM I feel it has allowed me to concentrate more on the cold side of brewing as the BM takes all the worry and concern out of the hot side which does give me some time to concentrate and apply different methods with fermentation and fining my lagers.

:cheers:
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Re: To trub or not to trub?

Unread postby leosardinha » Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:21 pm

And it really does the trick, I teached a friend how to brew couple weeks ago.

He has a 2v direct fire system, similar to my first setup. gosh, how tired I was by the end of the brew day.

Also I found out that the focus on the cold side improves the beer significantly.
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Re: To trub or not to trub?

Unread postby malzrohr » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:14 am

leosardinha wrote:And it really does the trick, I teached a friend how to brew couple weeks ago.

He has a 2v direct fire system, similar to my first setup. gosh, how tired I was by the end of the brew day.

Also I found out that the focus on the cold side improves the beer significantly.


Yup, the brewer makes the mash and the yeast make beer.
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Re: To trub or not to trub?

Unread postby leosardinha » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:28 pm

Nice move Niels.
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