Can You Over Pitch Yeast?

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Can You Over Pitch Yeast?

Unread postby Cervantes » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:16 pm

I know that under pitching yeast can be a problem, but is it possible to over pitch?

I was reading that commercial brewers use much higher pitching rates than are used in homebrew.
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Re: Can You Over Pitch Yeast?

Unread postby cpa4ny » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:55 am

It's not that professionals are using higher pitching rates - they are using proper pitching rates :wink:

Many homebrewers unfortunately underpitch - long lag times and sluggish fermentations result in that funny "homebrew" taste.

What works for me?

- Use of yeast calculator to come up with the proper pitch rate - Mr. Malty or YeastCalc
- If working with liquid yeast - always prepare a starter on a stirplate
- If working with dry yeast - always rehydrate (failure to do so results in yeast cell kill rate of about 50% according to the Yeast book).
- 1-2 minute of pure O2 aeration of the chilled wort prior to pitching the starter.

It's probably possible to overpitch and I am not sure what the ramifications of that would be.

However - the problem is usually underpitching.
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Re: Can You Over Pitch Yeast?

Unread postby Dicko » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:26 am

From here on page 121

The Yeast Book

Too higher pitching rate can result in low or unexpected esters, yeast autolosis flavours and poor head retention.
and it also says;
If you have to choose between underpitching and overpitching, overpitching is a little bit more tolerant than underpitching before fermentation defects become evident
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Re: Can You Over Pitch Yeast?

Unread postby Cervantes » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:38 am

cpa4ny wrote:It's not that professionals are using higher pitching rates - they are using proper pitching rates :wink:

Many homebrewers unfortunately underpitch - long lag times and sluggish fermentations result in that funny "homebrew" taste.

What works for me?

- Use of yeast calculator to come up with the proper pitch rate - Mr. Malty or YeastCalc
- If working with liquid yeast - always prepare a starter on a stirplate
- If working with dry yeast - always rehydrate (failure to do so results in yeast cell kill rate of about 50% according to the Yeast book).
- 1-2 minute of pure O2 aeration of the chilled wort prior to pitching the starter.

It's probably possible to overpitch and I am not sure what the ramifications of that would be.

However - the problem is usually underpitching.



cpa4ny,

Thanks for that.

I used 30 seconds pure O2 through a stainless steel stone last brew and the fermentation was by far my best yet. It made a huge difference.

I think I saw on YouTube that the guy from Wyeast was talking about oxygenating your wort and saying that 30 seconds O2 was plenty.

But I could be wrong...............
Last edited by Cervantes on Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Can You Over Pitch Yeast?

Unread postby Cervantes » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:39 am

Dicko wrote:From here on page 121

The Yeast Book

Too higher pitching rate can result in low or unexpected esters, yeast autolosis flavours and poor head retention.
and it also says;
If you have to choose between underpitching and overpitching, overpitching is a little bit more tolerant than underpitching before fermentation defects become evident


Thanks Dicko,

I have the Yeast Book in the post on it's way to me at the moment.
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Re: Can You Over Pitch Yeast?

Unread postby Dicko » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:46 am

Cervantes wrote:





I used 30 seconds pure O2 through a stainless steel stone last brew and the fermentation was by far my best yet. It made a huge difference.

I think I saw on YouTube that the guy from Wyeast was talking about oxygenating your wort and saying that 30 seconds O2 was plenty.

But I could be wrong...............


The rate of oxygen required is a point of contention at the home brew level. with our basic equipment it is difficult to assess or measure the required rate to treat the wort.
I pesrsonally have found that a little bit more than recommended seems to work better....but are all the other parameters of my pitch exact...this I don't know for sure :?:
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Re: Can You Over Pitch Yeast?

Unread postby cpa4ny » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:01 am

Cervantes wrote:
cpa4ny,

Thanks for that.

I used 30 seconds pure O2 through a stainless steel stone last brew and the fermentation was by far my best yet. It made a huge difference.

I think I saw on YouTube that the guy from Wyeast was talking about oxygenating your wort and saying that 30 seconds O2 was plenty.

But I could be wrong...............


Fully agree - oxygenating wort with pure O2 made a significant positive impact on my beers - no doubt about it.

Well, there is a way to know exactly how much oxygen you have added - can get a dissolved oxygen meter:

http://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-Economy ... ygen+meter

@ USD 150, it's not too bad :drink:
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Re: Can You Over Pitch Yeast?

Unread postby Cervantes » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:48 am

I stand corrected.

I found the YouTube clip and the guy from Wyeast recommends one minute with pure oxygen and a stone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75gpehf_6Gk

They recommend 12 to 15ppm of oxygen in the wort. The maximum possible using straight air is apparently 8ppm.

Pure O2 and a stone for one minute gets you about 15ppm.

But we digress. This thread is supposed to be about yeast rather than oxygen.
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Re: Can You Over Pitch Yeast?

Unread postby Dicko » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:21 am

Cervantes wrote:I stand corrected.

I found the YouTube clip and the guy from Wyeast recommends one minute with pure oxygen and a stone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75gpehf_6Gk

They recommend 12 to 15ppm of oxygen in the wort. The maximum possible using straight air is apparently 8ppm.

Pure O2 and a stone for one minute gets you about 15ppm.

But we digress. This thread is supposed to be about yeast rather than oxygen.


We are a tad off topic but I think Niels may forgive us :D
The amount of 02 the wort absorbs is, as I have been lead to believe, is influenced by the type of stone and the flow rate.
Too fast and or too bigger micron stone and the 02 escapes as bubbles or foam at the top of the wort so the suggestion of the DO metre is a sure way of determining the 02 in the beer.
Most 02 injection methods available to us Home crafters of fine ales and lagers (read brewers) :D are proportionately expensive to the rest of the brewing costs so we tend to "crib" a bit on exactly how much we actually put into the wort.
I wonder if I can get a DO meter passed by the"minister for finance" in my home. :lol:
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Re: Can You Over Pitch Yeast?

Unread postby Cervantes » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:07 pm

This is an excellent interview with another of the Wyeast guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEkwp_2Yezo

You probably need to watch it a couple of times and take notes, but I learned lots first time around and am going to watch again tomorrow night with a pen and pad handy.

He does touch on over pitching and under pitching, but also covers a hell of a lot more.
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Re: Can You Over Pitch Yeast?

Unread postby royco » Tue May 27, 2014 6:40 pm

Sorry Niels, but I am also latching on to the morphed topic -- now oxygenation.
I have just bought an O2 cylinder and have struggled to find out how to get the correct O2 absorption levels. After much searching it appears that the correct level is a time/flow rate function. Logical of course.
Problem is, you need a flowmeter or rotameter to get close. The one I scavenged off an argon cylinder had too large a range and I had to set it almost to zero to prevent the ss stone from leaping out of the fermenter and lashing me about the head. Gave it a minute and a half and within 5 hours the party really got started. It was a Wit and today we tasted the 9L force-carbed Corny. Not bad, but not as "Wit-ish"
as I wanted. I am going to seek help in the relevant section!
It seems that most home brewers seem to wing it and hope for the best. My fermentation certainly turned out to be my best so far, but I want to get a flowmeter with a small range of 0~1 lpm (lps?)
I hate guessing.
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Re: Can You Over Pitch Yeast?

Unread postby Dicko » Tue May 27, 2014 8:59 pm

Here is the flow meter that I use. LINK ON EBAY I have the LZQ 2 model.
While it is not absolutely accurate it does give a close approximation of how much you are putting into your wort.

I need to thank Dan from here for sourcing it for me.... :D
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Re: Can You Over Pitch Yeast?

Unread postby Cervantes » Tue May 27, 2014 9:45 pm

Dicko,

So now I'm placing yet another order on Ebay.

I think that Ebay and the postal service should pay you a commission :)

Presumably the 0-5 LPM version would be the one that I'd want?

Would you mind sharing, in very simple terms, the maths used to calculate how much oxygen your wort has absorbed?

Does this in any way allow for the oxygen that makes it through the wort to the surface and escapes?

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Re: Can You Over Pitch Yeast?

Unread postby Dicko » Tue May 27, 2014 10:01 pm

Cervantes wrote:Dicko,

So now I'm placing yet another order on Ebay.

I think that Ebay and the postal service should pay you a commission :)

Presumably the 0-5 LPM version would be the one that I'd want?

Would you mind sharing, in very simple terms, the maths used to calculate how much oxygen your wort has absorbed?

Does this in any way allow for the oxygen that makes it through the wort to the surface and escapes?

Cheers


Cerventes,

I am working away from home this week and I don't have any access to notes on this.

The model I have is the LZQ 2 model as stated above which is the 0 - 3 model.

You can search ebay with that description and that should give you the correct one.

Dan did the maths for the time and flow and he may reply if he reads this, failing that I will get back to you when I return home.

Cheers
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Re: Can You Over Pitch Yeast?

Unread postby Cervantes » Tue May 27, 2014 11:05 pm

Dicko,

Many thanks for that.

You are, if I may say so, a Gentleman.

I pinched this from the AHB forum.............

"Recommended dosage is 60sec @ 1 litre/min for a 23 litre batch through a 0.5 micron airstone."


I've added it here so that I can find it again :D
Last edited by Cervantes on Wed May 28, 2014 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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