20 Litre BM Beersmith Profile

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20 Litre BM Beersmith Profile

Unread postby Dicko » Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:05 am

Hi BMers

I have posted this information in the 50 litre profile topic to assist a member with his set up.
I note that there is no profile for the 20 litre in "Software so here is mine....

Dicko's Equipment.JPG


Dicko's Advanced Options.JPG


Design Screen 2.JPG


You may note that those total efficiency and batch size figures come up in the design screen automatically from how I have the Equipment Profile set.



Because I have not included any losses after the boil then that makes my Mash Efficiency and my Brewhouse Efficiency the same. In MY case 77%



The moment I include losses the Mash Efficiency stays the same but the Brewhouse efficiency drops.



Some people feel that it is important to know Brewhouse Efficiency, personally I dont because it in no way will help with repeatability of a recipe.....the only thing it tells you is how much you lose AFTER the boil.



To work out how much to sparge, take the total brewing water volume from the design screen and subtract 25 litres for the 20litre BM (top mark on the centre rod) and the result is how much water you will sparge.



From the example above Total Water = 33.70 litres you will use 25 litres for the mash by filling the BM to the top mark and then sparge 8.70 litres in this case.

With grain absorption and all other preboil losses taken into account you will note I end up with 30.4 litres pre boil for every brew I do using Beersmith with MY settings.

This pre boil figure does not change from recipe to recipe but the Total Water Needed does change relative to the amount of grain required.

The boil off also never changes so you will always end up with a batch size of 25 litres if using my settings.

On the Design screen it shows the post boil volume of 26 litres.
Add to this the boil off figure from the Equipment window and Beersmith calculate my pre boil volume to be 30.4 litres for every brew unless I change something in the profile.


I hope this helps

:cheers:
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Re: 20 Litre BM Beersmith Profile

Unread postby Andy_Chil » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:13 am

Dicko wrote:Hi BMers

I have posted this information in the 50 litre profile topic to assist a member with his set up.
I note that there is no profile for the 20 litre in "Software so here is mine....

Dicko's Equipment.JPG


Dicko's Advanced Options.JPG


Design Screen 2.JPG


You may note that those total efficiency and batch size figures come up in the design screen automatically from how I have the Equipment Profile set.



Because I have not included any losses after the boil then that makes my Mash Efficiency and my Brewhouse Efficiency the same. In MY case 77%



The moment I include losses the Mash Efficiency stays the same but the Brewhouse efficiency drops.



Some people feel that it is important to know Brewhouse Efficiency, personally I dont because it in no way will help with repeatability of a recipe.....the only thing it tells you is how much you lose AFTER the boil.



To work out how much to sparge, take the total brewing water volume from the design screen and subtract 25 litres for the 20litre BM (top mark on the centre rod) and the result is how much water you will sparge.



From the example above Total Water = 33.70 litres you will use 25 litres for the mash by filling the BM to the top mark and then sparge 8.70 litres in this case.

With grain absorption and all other preboil losses taken into account you will note I end up with 30.4 litres pre boil for every brew I do using Beersmith with MY settings.

This pre boil figure does not change from recipe to recipe but the Total Water Needed does change relative to the amount of grain required.

The boil off also never changes so you will always end up with a batch size of 25 litres if using my settings.

On the Design screen it shows the post boil volume of 26 litres.
Add to this the boil off figure from the Equipment window and Beersmith calculate my pre boil volume to be 30.4 litres for every brew unless I change something in the profile.


I hope this helps

:cheers:


Bloody great post Dicko! 8)
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Re: 20 Litre BM Beersmith Profile

Unread postby Andy_Chil » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:37 am

Hi again Dicko,

You've inspired some further fiddling. Can you explain a bit about boil time.
I had my profile set for 60 minutes and the recipe calculates accordingly. I was inputing a recipe that had a 90 min boil time.
In the design screen, it automatically takes the boil time from the equipment profile.
I manually change it to 90 mins. That worked, but it makes no difference to the boil off figures in the volumes screen.

This begs a couple of questions.
Does boil time have any baring on the recipe? (after the necessary adjustments etc.)
If I want a different boil time to that in the profile, do I need to alter the profile.
I notice you have 80 mins in your profile. Is that what you use for everything?

Thanks heaps,

Andy
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Re: 20 Litre BM Beersmith Profile

Unread postby Dicko » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:43 am

Hi Andy chill,
I boil for 80 mins because that boil off figure is what seems to be suitable for me with both dms and clarity.
Many brewers like to use 60 min boil and many others use a 90 min boil.

For the same mash efficiency which means you have used the same amount of grain, all that happens is if you increase the boil time you need to increase the amount of water that you are going to boil off to achieve the same OG or pre fermentation gravity.
We are extremely lucky with the BM because we really do not have to worry about astringency by over sparging to achieve a 90 minute boil.
If you take my figures above and modify the BS figures to actually suit your own brewery then you will still never sparge enough water to cause astringency in the sparge because of the fact that you are starting with 25 litres in the original mash and then only sparging a small amount of water extra to achieve a correct pre boil volume.

With an ordinary 3 v brewery you will need to pay strict attention to sparge volumes so as not to go too far with the sparge volume so as not extract the dreaded astringency.
Just hand it to the Germans, they have got it worked out with the BM when you are sparging a small amount and still getting in excess of 75 % MASH EFFICIENCY.
Some brewers with BM's just use a no sparge formula which is when thay actually overfill the mash process with the total amount of water and just remove the malt pipe and continue from there.
I personally like the way I do it but no sparge is a widely accepted process in brewing.
No sparge in a 3v sytem costs a big bite of MASH efficiency but this apparently does not happen with the Speidel BM.

:cheers:
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Re: 20 Litre BM Beersmith Profile

Unread postby Dicko » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:51 am

Andy_Chil wrote:Hi again Dicko,

You've inspired some further fiddling. Can you explain a bit about boil time.
I had my profile set for 60 minutes and the recipe calculates accordingly. I was inputing a recipe that had a 90 min boil time.
In the design screen, it automatically takes the boil time from the equipment profile.
I manually change it to 90 mins. That worked, but it makes no difference to the boil off figures in the volumes screen.

This begs a couple of questions.
Does boil time have any baring on the recipe? (after the necessary adjustments etc.)
If I want a different boil time to that in the profile, do I need to alter the profile.
I notice you have 80 mins in your profile. Is that what you use for everything?

Thanks heaps,

Andy


Andy,
If you are using another recipe in Beersmith you need to use the "scale recipe" function to your actual "Equipment Profile" so to achieve the same result.
Personally I would not alter anything in the design screen but use the scale function to change the recipe to actually suit your equipment.

I hope this helps,

:cheers:
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Re: 20 Litre BM Beersmith Profile

Unread postby redwing_al » Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:49 pm

I'm curious, how did you calculate your Grain Absorbtion and BIAB absorption rates in the Advanced settings?

Great Job, Dicko!
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Keg 4:
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Re: 20 Litre BM Beersmith Profile

Unread postby malzrohr » Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:35 pm

Hi Dicko,

I noticed that you have your hop utilization set to 100% in the first image. Can you elaborate a bit on that setting? I was let to believe that hops utilization is usually around 30%.

Cheers,
Hans


EDIT: fix typo.
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Re: 20 Litre BM Beersmith Profile

Unread postby airborn » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:24 pm

Interesting

I have a question for Nesto and/or Dicko

Nesto posted an example of volumes when he does not sparge but starts off with the total water needed and then after treating and heating water he drains off so much water that it allows him to fit the malt pipe , add malt and them pour the water back..

Is any of this possible to put in a BS-profile or do you just use the total water numbers
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Re: 20 Litre BM Beersmith Profile

Unread postby Dicko » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:57 pm

redwing_al wrote:I'm curious, how did you calculate your Grain Absorbtion and BIAB absorption rates in the Advanced settings?

Great Job, Dicko!


I found that by measuring the amount of difference in the volumes from the initial strike volume to what I had in the kettle after I lifted the malt pipe, I had a figure that was very close to the BIAB figure that is used in Beersmith2.
In the screenshot above all I did was change the figure in the grain absorption area to be the same as for BIAB.
I did this so that I didnt have to select BIAB for every recipe.

There has been much discussion on grain absorption figures on this forum and some others and many people still use the old formula of 1 litre per kilo of grain but in my opinion and from extensive measuring on my BM that figure is too high.
I note that many BM users claim a loss of MASH EFFICIENCY when moving toward the maximum grain bill and I believe that this is caused by the grain absorption figure being incorrect, ie: too high.
The more grain in a recipe the more water is added for absorption and therefor if that absorption figure is overstated then what the brewer is actually doing is watering down his beer resulting in a lower OG figure. Hence the statement " I lose MASH EFFICIENCY when I make big beers"

I hope this makes sense.

:cheers:
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Re: 20 Litre BM Beersmith Profile

Unread postby Dicko » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:04 pm

malzrohr wrote:Hi Dicko,

I noticed that you have your hop utilization set to 100% in the first image. Can you elaborate a bit on that setting? I was let to believe that hops utilization is usually around 30%.

Cheers,
Hans


EDIT: fix typo.


If you look closely directly under the hop percentage utilization factor it states to set this figure at 100% for batches under 76 litres or 20 gallons.
Personally I have never gone into the reason behind this setting but I have learned over the years that hop bitterness is really related to personal perception.
As long as you as a brewer set a bench mark for "bitterness" and stick to it then you will have, once again, the ability to repeat a recipe.

:cheers:
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Re: 20 Litre BM Beersmith Profile

Unread postby Dicko » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:10 pm

airborn wrote:Interesting

I have a question for Nesto and/or Dicko

Nesto posted an example of volumes when he does not sparge but starts off with the total water needed and then after treating and heating water he drains off so much water that it allows him to fit the malt pipe , add malt and them pour the water back..

Is any of this possible to put in a BS-profile or do you just use the total water numbers


I hope Nesto comes in on this question but my take on your enquiry is that you would just use the total water amount and do it exactly as you stated.
In real life, Beersmith2 is not really user friendly when it comes to the different options that are available with the Speidel Braumeister.
There has been many a call for someone out there to write some software that can include all the perameters that can present themselves when using our BM's.........please someone.. :lol:

:cheers:
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Re: 20 Litre BM Beersmith Profile

Unread postby Nesto » Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:25 am

airborn wrote:Interesting

I have a question for Nesto and/or Dicko

Nesto posted an example of volumes when he does not sparge but starts off with the total water needed and then after treating and heating water he drains off so much water that it allows him to fit the malt pipe , add malt and them pour the water back..

Is any of this possible to put in a BS-profile or do you just use the total water numbers

Yes, for that example I only use the total water volume numbers in Beersmith.

As an editorial, I really do like Beersmith a lot, but as regulars here know, I employ a few other tools to manage my brewing. Beersmith works well (with some caveats) on managing volumes and gravity as long as you can figure out your equipment profile and grain absorption. But the mash timer isn't needed on a BM, the boil timer function is a little cumbersome so I use my iPhone, the water adjustment tool doesn't quite work so I use EZ water calculator, and the refractometer tool formulas seem off so I use Northern Brewers gravity calculator or my own spreadsheet.
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Re: 20 Litre BM Beersmith Profile

Unread postby Nesto » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:11 am

malzrohr wrote:Hi Dicko,

I noticed that you have your hop utilization set to 100% in the first image. Can you elaborate a bit on that setting? I was let to believe that hops utilization is usually around 30%.

Cheers,
Hans


EDIT: fix typo.

Beersmith's Brad answer...
Hi,
The hop utilization factor for equipment is not the same as utilization in the boil. In the equipment profile it is really just a number to adjust for really large brewing systems (greater than 20 gallons - typically microbrews) that get high utilization. Its normalized to 100% for home brewing, but if you own a microbrewery you might get much higher setting. You can think of this more as a scaling factor used by really large breweries. It should be 100% unless you are working with more than 20 gallons.

Hop utilization in the boil is estimated using the various equations (tinseth, rager, etc) and as you point out is actually much lower. The program takes care of this separately using the hop IBU equations.

Brad
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Re: 20 Litre BM Beersmith Profile

Unread postby Nesto » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:46 am

Andy_Chil wrote:...
I had my profile set for 60 minutes and the recipe calculates accordingly. I was inputing a recipe that had a 90 min boil time.
In the design screen, it automatically takes the boil time from the equipment profile.
I manually change it to 90 mins. That worked, but it makes no difference to the boil off figures in the volumes screen.
...

In Beersmith, you have to have the "Use boil off as an hourly rate" box checked to adjust the recipe. And it will adjust volumes, not gravity. I have two equipment profiles, one for a 60 minute boil and one for a 90 minute boil (when I'm using Pilsner malt). That's how I account for different boil times.
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20 Litre BM Beersmith Profile

Unread postby Nesto » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:13 am

Dicko wrote:
redwing_al wrote:I'm curious, how did you calculate your Grain Absorbtion and BIAB absorption rates in the Advanced settings?

Great Job, Dicko!

...
I note that many BM users claim a loss of MASH EFFICIENCY when moving toward the maximum grain bill and I believe that this is caused by the grain absorption figure being incorrect, ie: too high.
The more grain in a recipe the more water is added for absorption and therefor if that absorption figure is overstated then what the brewer is actually doing is watering down his beer resulting in a lower OG figure. Hence the statement " I lose MASH EFFICIENCY when I make big beers"

I hope this makes sense.

:cheers:

Totally agree. I actually measure grain absorption for every brew session (I know, Nesto being anal!) and while I have it set in my advanced settings for 0.700 fl oz/oz (0.8032 liters/kg), my actuals have ranged from .5 fl oz/oz to .8 fl oz/oz (it bugs me that I can run the rest of my brew process in metric, but Beersmith doesn't change the units for grain absorption!) depending on the specific grain bill. For example, roasted grains absorb less water. If you have a good average figure for your system and typical brews (and have a good crush setting), then you'll get good results and won't "lose mash efficiency" with big beers. For my biggest grain bill (6kg) I actually hit my average mash efficiency (77%). My mash efficiency has very little to do with the size of my grain bill and much more to do with my mash schedule.
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